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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2011 22:15:00 GMT
A suggestion on the BBC here |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2011 22:54:10 GMT
"The power would come from a rail mounted a couple of feet above the track..."
Are they talking about DLR-style electrification, or will the underside of the car (oops, carriage if it's on NR) be one giant positive shoe?
OT: does LU still call them cars rather than carriages?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 14, 2011 23:00:42 GMT
Very good idea, if the D stocks quality is similar to the A stock they could be going till 2029.
The stumbling block is whether third rail would be permitted, and track circuits.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2011 23:03:54 GMT
Wasn't this suggested by Alan Williams a few months ago, I seem to recall it being discussed elsewhere on this board?
Personally, I'd keep the longer trains of D Stock down south to work London suburban routes and send Harrogate the Southern (ex-LO) class 313s, which could venture onto the OHLE at Leeds!
Also, if they really want 3rd rail stock, aren't there a load of perfectly good 508s kicking around spare?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2011 23:05:34 GMT
I think thats a brilliant idea. Very environmentally friendly and cost efficient.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 14, 2011 23:13:36 GMT
Its a pity that the NLL wasn't kept as 4th rail; having the Overground network running the same electrification as the Underground could be quite strategic.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 14, 2011 23:57:05 GMT
I think it more likely that the Underground would go to third rail as that system has the wider use. LU trains (well at least the C, D and 72, and presumably S) can already cope with getting +750v input from the posi shoes only. The IOW 38s (and Sarah Siddons iirc) have also been modified to run on third rail so the conversion should be doable. You can also run a tube-gauge train on a mainline gauge railway, but not vice versa.
Whether the cost of conversion (of trains and infrastructure) would be worth it is a completely different matter, but I'd guess converting LU stock to third rail would be cheaper than converting LO stock to 4th rail.
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Post by jardine01 on Jul 15, 2011 6:29:32 GMT
This would be a great Idea! for the Harrogate line
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 6:50:44 GMT
Whilst I think the is great idea I fear that Network Rail would oppose any new 3rd rail electrification. Maybe OHLE could be fitted providing 750V DC but designed to be updated to 25KV in the future when the D Stock is retired. Pantographs would need to be fitted - as an aside this how the Seashore Trolley Museum www.trolleymuseum.org/ run their former Underground stock, but using trolley poles rather that pantographs. The alternative which Alan Williams mentioned was push-pull operation utilising diesel locomotives. With Alan living not to far away from Leeds I wonder if he has been doing some local lobbying for this idea. I have read Alan Williams column in Modern Railways since it first started he is one of the finest railway journalists with great vision Xerces Fobe |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 15, 2011 7:27:28 GMT
Alan Williams lives somewhere on the Esk valley (middlesborough-Whitby) line, a long way from Harrogate.
Would the good people of the West Riding appreciate the absence of toilets on their trains? And, let's face it, even D stock is older than any DMU currently running in the area.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 15, 2011 7:54:19 GMT
But better than the pacers I used last time I was there!!
Its a great Idea!
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Post by thc on Jul 15, 2011 9:14:08 GMT
I agree that it is an idea worthy of further consideration, if not for the Harrogate line then for others. I was mildly amused to note the idea being roundly poo-poohed by the cognoscenti of the uk.railway newsgroup, who clearly know best about these things.
THC
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 10:27:26 GMT
A self-contained 3rd-rail system that doesn't have to conform to Network Rail crashworthiness standard? *looks lovingly at the forgotten historic Southern EMUs dotted about the country in various stages of disrepair*
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 10:44:59 GMT
Maybe OHLE could be fitted providing 750V DC but designed to be updated to 25KV in the future when the D Stock is retired. Using OHLE for 750V DC would be a bit impractical as the current-carrying capacity would be very limited. This is why OHLE uses such a high voltage. |
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Post by knap on Jul 15, 2011 10:59:22 GMT
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Post by Chris M on Jul 15, 2011 11:00:46 GMT
Most tramways use 750v DC OHLE...
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Post by suncloud on Jul 15, 2011 11:43:12 GMT
The BBC report does specifically refer to the DLR system (bottom contact thrid rail). AIUI 'new' top contact third rail systems are not allowed (although extensions of existing systems are. I think there's some mileage in this plan. If a OHLE system was introduced, it would have to be 25kW AC or a complete segregation from the ECML at Leeds and York...
I certainly think a D stock, even if older, is an upgrade from the pacers...
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Post by metrailway on Jul 15, 2011 12:55:59 GMT
I agree that it is an idea worthy of further consideration, if not for the Harrogate line then for others. I was mildly amused to note the idea being roundly poo-poohed by the cognoscenti of the uk.railway newsgroup, who clearly know best about these things. THC The guys on railuk forums also hate the idea. According to the railnews article, the proposal costs £150m for electrification and stock (20 D78s + 10 spare). I've calculated that if you instead ordered 20 4 car 172 (4 car to get similar no of seats to D78), it would cost £140m, only £10m cheaper  |
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Post by d7666 on Jul 15, 2011 14:34:49 GMT
Am I the only one here that thinks this is a completely barmy idea with not a hope in hell of getting off the ground ?
Had it been closer to April 1 I'd never have responded.
--
Nick
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 14:47:57 GMT
I love the idea
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Post by phillw48 on Jul 15, 2011 15:14:20 GMT
Am I the only one here that thinks this is a completely barmy idea with not a hope in hell of getting off the ground ? Had it been closer to April 1 I'd never have responded. -- Nick Is not this time of year known as the 'Silly Season'? |
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Post by andypurk on Jul 15, 2011 15:19:05 GMT
Of course, it would almost certainly be cheaper to string up 25kV OHLE and use some class 315s (or whatever else will become available once new Thameslink / Crossrail trains start in service), rather then converting both the D-stock and the route to bottom contact 3rd rail with all the delights of running together with 25kV at either end of the route. The D-stock is now older than nearly all mainline units.
OHLE doesn't have to spoil the view of any viaducts, if properly designed and high voltage electrification is more efficient and cheaper to install (unless there are long stretches of line with limited clearance).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 16:28:21 GMT
Hmm, interesting proposal... I think there is a block on new lines with 3rd rail electrification, but I know there might be exclusions, such as to link a short non-electrified section or such like... I guess the 'new' ELL was done this was as it was more or less a like for like replacement. Am not sure as to the exact rules on this, but maybe Network Rail might have the answer via their website or contact centre!
Bit far fetched, having an isolated patch of 3rd Rail territory in the Harrogate area!
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Post by metrailway on Jul 15, 2011 16:38:16 GMT
Hmm, interesting proposal... I think there is a block on new lines with 3rd rail electrification, but I know there might be exclusions, such as to link a short non-electrified section or such like... I guess the 'new' ELL was done this was as it was more or less a like for like replacement. Am not sure as to the exact rules on this, but maybe Network Rail might have the answer via their website or contact centre! Bit far fetched, having an isolated patch of 3rd Rail territory in the Harrogate area! Network Rail won't install your standard 3rd rail in non 3rd rail land BUT there are no restrictions on installing a DLR style 3rd rail, which is what is being suggested. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 17:03:29 GMT
Well, it seems a great idea, the D's have loads of life left in 'em! Great way to re-use of existing stock!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2011 19:26:55 GMT
Sounds like a good idea in theory, couldnt a toilet be installed on the d stock if they are refurbished?
One point i will raise when i read the article was that they were expecting them to become availaale for 2014, shouldnt that be 2015 as i though the circle line was getting the new s stock before the district?
besides if there are plenty of D stock trains left over, and they by chance manage to get this idea off the ground that someone in the welsh government may decide to do something similar for the cardiff valley lines network
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Post by Phil on Jul 15, 2011 21:51:33 GMT
....someone in the welsh government may decide to do something similar for the cardiff valley lines network I doubt it. The whole point about the valley lines idea is that the wires already agreed to also go beyond Cardiff, primarily to Swansea (their words not mine) and then for the whole of the valley line network. Apart from the "no more new 3rd rail" mentioned above, to have TWO different electrification systems in and around Cardiff is just not on. Even the Welsh are not that daft (as you seem to imply  )!!! |
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Post by littlebrute on Jul 15, 2011 22:57:01 GMT
Its true, we're not daft  |
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Post by andypurk on Jul 16, 2011 5:56:44 GMT
....someone in the welsh government may decide to do something similar for the cardiff valley lines network I doubt it. The whole point about the valley lines idea is that the wires already agreed to also go beyond Cardiff, primarily to Swansea (their words not mine) and then for the whole of the valley line network. Apart from the "no more new 3rd rail" mentioned above, to have TWO different electrification systems in and around Cardiff is just not on. Even the Welsh are not that daft (as you seem to imply )!!! And, as I mentioned before, that is also the reason why using such a system on the Harrogate line doesn't make sense, as both ends of the route are already electrified with OHLE at 25kV, with no unelectrified tracks into either Leeds or York. Using two different electrification systems on the same tracks is likely to need expensive alterations to signalling circuits. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2011 16:03:22 GMT
I seem to recall that back in the early-1980s there was a plan to use R Stock on the Athens - Piraeus railway in Greece. That came to nothing.
As much as I love the idea, especially with D Stock 'only' 35 years old, I find it hard to believe that it will actually happen.
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