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Post by Admin Team on Mar 26, 2005 14:28:47 GMT
I'm starting a new thread on this as Igelkotten has put up a superb posting on this topic - and raises many factors that are worthy for discussion. His original post can be seen at districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Stations&thread=1109989147&start=15 and the content reads as follows....... "That depends on how you define "problem". Speaking from my Stockholm horizon, our thirtyfiveish one unders per year are a minor concern when it comes to overall delay minutes. They are, however, a major source of problems for drivers and staff, with a lot of mental anguish being the result of one of those incidents, sometimes leading to a driver not going back to driving duties at all. They are, in fact, one of our major workplace health & safety issues. What I think that Jim means, and incidentally agree completely with, is that one unders are a very high-profile thing, something that can easily be used and exploited by people for various reasons. We have had several cases here in Stockholm of people being killed due to their own actions in the Metro, with friends and relatives afterwards putting the blame on the company. Sometimes, it has led to real "hate the drivers"-campaign, with very ugly consequences for staff. The reasons behind those actions are, of course, many. Genuine shock and sorrow can cause all sorts of strange reactions in the human psyche -denial, revenge fantasies, a desperate attempt at finding a cause, something that can explain a senseless death. Others might be the stereotypical "ambulance chaser", looking for a big wad of compensation money. Now, add a ambitious journalist working for some broadsheet or other, not being especially knowledgeable about how railways run (and who is, really, apart from us sad little bunch?) but knowing what sells and what makes nice, big headlines. What I would be really concerned about is the working environment of any people who have to go trackside as a part of their duties. Even if you go the way of having ATO with a supervising driver in the cab, like the Central and Victoria lines have done, you still run into the "human-out-of-loop" problem when something happens: "Buh? Where am I? What happens? Am I supposed to do something? F**K there's someone on the track!" When a human operator (of a train, a toaster, a bike -whatever) encounters something out of the ordinary, you first have to percieve that there is actually something happening. That's were alarms, flashing lights etc come into play. Then, you have to identify what is happening, hopefully correctly, and come up with an appropriate strategy to deal with it. It has been proven again and again and again ad nauseaum that humans that are relegated to a role of passive observers of a process -out of the process loop- are significantly worse at all stages of the reaction process. It takes them longer to actually realise that something is happening, identify what happens, come up with an appropriate response and then implement it. This is one of our fundamental limitations -this is how the human mental processes works. This is not something that can be eliminated by draconian punishments, disciplinary rulings or similar methods, even though those are the ones that are most often used. What can be done is, to a certain extent, to train people to be alert for certain things, and to perform certain responses reflexively. But that is something that brings with it a whole other slew of problems, such as how to correctly diagnose a situation, and having a very limited reportoire of responses. All situtations are not solved by pushing the big yellow button -sometimes you might actually have to push the small green one, too. The major improvments in performance comes when the human operator is in a ergonomically sound working environment, reasonably well rested, and, most importantly, an active part of the process, being able to move lever A and watch the results, getting feedback on his or her actions. The human mind also tires quickly. To remain fully alert, we have to have a changing environment to respond to -or, failing that, frequent reliefs. Air Traffic Controllers often work in stretches of about one hour, after which they have a short break to mentally "reset" themselves. Of course, this ideal situation also brings with it it's own problems. The possibility of a human fiddling with a proess and getting a response is good for attention levels, but some processes are actually best left to their own devices, without human intervention. There have actually been experiments with providing false stimuli for human operators, giving them the illusion of having control over the process, but in practice being observers only. Likewise, good working environments and frequent reliefs costs money -money that is notoriously hard to get. And when it comes to "fuzzy" subjects such as these, where innumerable factors come into play and there is no fast and easy "right" or "wrong", money becomes even more scarce. /Igelkotten"
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Post by Admin Team on Mar 26, 2005 14:40:28 GMT
To add my 'reply' to this I'd add the following: In my diary pages I deal with a number of factors and incidents and the impact these have on a number of those involved - you can read the piece at www.trainweb.org/districtdave/html/_one_under_s_.htmlI was interested to note Igelkotten's comment about the attitudes of friends and families of the victim - so far as I'm aware this hasn't been the experience here; indeed I've heard many stories of relatives actually apologising to Train Operators after the inquests into such deaths for the stress and trauma the actions of the victim caused. I believe that the statistics for 'One Unders' on LU runs at about 100 such incidents each year. Most are deliberate acts but some, as my diary page reflects, are accidental. Many of the accidental acts have an alcohol related connection - indeed there was one such at Acton Town only in the last couple of months. I heard that the Japanese suicide rate was getting so huge that the families of such perpetrators (for want of a better word) are now held financially responsible for the actions of their family members, and that this has had a dramatic effect in reducing the numbers of such incidents. I've not had one, and hope I never do. I know that at least one of the contributors has, and perhaps he will share his thoughts.
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Post by chris on Mar 26, 2005 16:11:11 GMT
Maybe i'm missing the point entirley, but I read on Dave's site that, sadly, a driver (operator) could statistically expect a 'one under' every 5 years. But why would people want to become a train operator with the prospect of witnessing an horrific event about 4 or 5 times in his/her career? Maybe it's something you just accept over time, or do you remain in a paranoid state every time you enter a station? I mean, 100 a year is about 1 every 3 or 4 days.
Sorry to sound ignorant, but it's something i've pondered over before.
(Did you now they are referred to as 'Track Pizza' on the subway systems on America, and in some countries they play soothing music at stations to relax the would be victim?)
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Post by Admin Team on Mar 26, 2005 16:30:19 GMT
I don't think you're missing the point at all Chris! I suppose the way I look at is that it's an occupational hazard and that if I do have one I *hope* I'll be able to deal with it...... As a driver you get to know which stations at what times of day are likely to be crowded, or people may be fooling around so the way I deal with this is to even more watchful than usual and - if I do think people aren't paying attention I'll give a blow on the whistle to make sure they're aware of my approach..... There's not too much else you can do really. Mind, I have been known to have a go at a few twits when they've been being particularly stupid - like the bloke who was swinging his girlfriend around at about midnight one Friday night on platform 3 at Earls Court. He wondered why I was angry....... The bottom line is that we've got something approaching 200 tons of train which we can't swerve. So as long as I do all I can to be vigilant and try to stop there's really little more I can do. I think you're right though - you do have to accept the prospect that it could happen, and hope it doesn't. But 'Track Pizza'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2005 20:07:29 GMT
I had a one under on 7th December 1997 at 17.08 whilst working on the Hammersmith & City Line. Here’s the story of how a normal day can suddenly change.
I had booked on at Edgware Road just before 17.00, I made a few comments to other drivers about how bad my turn was, I had just over 4 hours on the H&C doing Hammersmith – Whitechapel’s which in my opinion was worse than 3 Circles, anyway the whining got me nowhere so went down to the W/B platform to pick up my train, 224, which came in on time, I relieved the Driver and went on my way to Hammersmith.
I left Ladbroke Grove, so far everything routine. After leaving Ladbroke Grove the line turns to the left then straightens and runs along a viaduct with flats either side of the line all the way to Latimer Road. I preceded heading towards Latimer Road, as I approached I could see the station clearly, as here the line is dead straight, I noticed a person standing on the edge at the end of the platform, I was now about a trains length away and was coasting, I looked at him and he looked back at me before stepping back from the edge, I thought he was playing chicken as a lot of people do, I just thought what a w****r, to my sudden shock, he ran forward and jumped off the platform edge as my train was at the platform ramp, he went past the cab window and hit the offside of the train before going under, I also actually felt the train go over him with a slight bump(this is something that still surprises me today). During this time I had released the TBC, and pushed my feet hard on the floor, this does nothing but is a reflex action that many drivers do when they need to stop quickly. I was mumbling “please stop, please stop” all the time, this must have been about 4 or 5 seconds but felt like minutes. I stopped with 3 cars in. The adrenalin must have taken over as I turned to jelly and couldn’t think straight, I used the train Public Address to attempt to make a Mayday call to the controller, before realising my mistake, I then used the radio correctly to inform the controller, get the current discharged and get assistance. The station supervisor came up and we detrained the passengers, the supervisor explaining why. The attitude of some of the passengers left me a little annoyed, a young lady walked up to me and said “So how am I supposed to get to Hammersmith” I don’t know I abruptly answered, to which she replied “there’s no need to be rude” and stormed off, a few others did express concern as they left while a group of youths lay on the platform trying to see the body, they were reluctant to leave the station.
We are trained to secure the train and ensure the current can’t be restored by putting devices known as SCD’s down at either end of the train, but in my panic I completely forgot this, I was standing on the platform when the first police officers turned up, they took a brief statement, then the DMT arrived, he told the supervisor to go and make me a cup of tea, he took over while I sat in the booking office still shaking drinking my tea, I sat in front of an open cash draw bulging with £10 and £20 notes and even if I was that way inclined I probably wouldn’t have been able to pick up a bundle of notes due to the shaking. The DMT arranged a taxi home for me.
I didn’t sleep for the next couple of nights, the 10 seconds leading up to the incident kept playing over in my mind. I went to my doctor who insisted I take time off, without me asking he gave me a 4 week medical certificate, after a week I started getting back to normal when the BTP turned up at my door wanting a full statement they had turned up with a van, my neighbours must have thought I was up to no good. I took LU’s counselling which in all honesty did nothing for me and I personally wouldn’t bother with them again.
A few weeks later I was called up to Westminster Coroners Court to give evidence an Edgware Road and my Union Rep were also there. It is very much like a court where I took the stand and the coroner asked my story, the Sister and Doctor of the victim also gave evidence. I learned that the victim was released from Charing Cross Hospital two days before, having been suffering depression. The jury heard this, they were sent out and told they could come back with three choices, Accidental Death, Misadventure or Suicide. They went out for a few minutes, and came back with a suicide verdict. I met the sister outside, she apologised to me and we shook hands and we went our separate ways without further comment.
A week later I was back at work, I had another driving riding in the cab for the first two days for confidence, after that the matter as far as I was concerned over.
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Post by Admin Team on Mar 26, 2005 20:32:46 GMT
I think that story tells so much from so many angles - the reactions (actual and mental) of the driver, those of the passengers, the police, the relatives and even his neighbours!
It demonstrates too the frame of mind the driver's in 'post incident' and how - despite all the training - things will be overlooked.
In fairness to LU (and I think Jims post says this) they accept that the best thing to do is get the driver away as soon as they can, and then take it a step at a time - every incident's unique.
Thanks for telling the story Jim - I'm sure others appreciate it too.
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2005 20:48:25 GMT
I really don't mind recalling it. I've told this story many times now to family and friends and can remember every detail like it was yesterday, but I have got over it and it has no effect on me. I still get some stick on how I got out of a dead rough turn by colleagues
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Post by chris on Mar 26, 2005 20:54:02 GMT
Wow. That must've been tough Jim. I admire you a lot for recalling the story and even more so for getting back in the cab. I doubt I could do the same.
I hope it nevers happens to you again. Or anyone, for that matter.
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Post by q8 on Mar 26, 2005 20:55:26 GMT
With regard to this thread I think that these incidents are partly down to providence as I've known drivers who were on the handle for 40 years and never had one in all their career and others who had had many. One chap I remember had had 3 in one year and 7 in total. This however was on two different lines, the Central and the DR. Lady Luck is choosy who she smiles on
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solidbond
Staff Emeritus
'Give me 118 reasons for an Audible Warning on a C Stock'
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Post by solidbond on Mar 26, 2005 21:44:15 GMT
Having just read Jim's account of his 'one under' I thought I would tell the tale of mine. Strangely, there are a number of similarities with Jim's one. Mine was also on the H&C, was also in December, albeit on Saturday morning 18th December 1988, and was also Train 224! I was doing nights, and all I had left to do was Hammersmith and back to Baker Street. I then had to do the Sat night, then 2 weeks of leave over Christmas and New Year. It was 0630 and I had just left Paddington heading towards Royal Oak. If you have ever been down that part you will know there are a couple of bends just before the platform, and also the large bridge supports close to the platform at Royal Oak. As I was approaching the platform I saw what seemed to be a person walking along the track. In that area there is a larger than normal distance between the E/B and W/B lines, and the person was walking in this area, referred to as the 6 foot. My first reaction was to stop motoring, and sound the whistle. I didn't apply the brakes immediately, as you expect a person to move out of the way of a moving train. When I realised he wasn't responding, I appplied the emergency brake. The front offside corner of the cab hit the man, about 3 cars short of Royal Oak platform. The cab stopped just at the top of the ramp. I used the radio to make the Mayday, then used the PA to tell the passengers. I opened the offside cab door, and the J door, and started telling people to make their way out of the cab and to leave the station. I walked to the rear of the train to get the passengers off, telling them to leave the train via the cab door when they got to the front cab. I also had to deal with one awkward passenger, albeit slightly different to Jim's. This passenger was in the last car, and wanted to know all the details, 'Is he badly hurt?', 'Is there a lot of blood?', 'Are there bits missing?' I replied 'I don't know, and don't want to know', but I felt like saying 'If you carry on, you'll find out cos I'll throw YOU under the next HST to go past!' Of course, cos he was in the rear car, I had to put up with him all the way back to the front. When I got to the front, someone had gone down to where the person was on the track, and said that he was not actually under the train, so could I move the train into the platform. Not really being with it, I just called the controller and asked for current to be switched back on, so I could move the train. As he put it back on, so the Fire, Police, Ambulance and Area Manager arrived, so I had to get the current switched off again. Like Jim, at no time did I put SCDs down, nor did I secure the train with handbrakes (this was before C stock were refurbished!) due to not really knowing what I was doing due to the shock. The Area Manager also told the Foreman at Royal Oak to go and make me a cup of tea! By the time he got back with it, the ambulance crew had the man on a stretcher, and the fire crews were removing him onto the platform. After the person was taken away, the Area Manager told me to sit in the front car and drink the tea while he drove the train to Hammersmith. I then went back to Baker Street, where I gave a statement to the Police while the Area Manager took his notes at the same time. I was then off sick for the next 4 weeks, and returned to my 2 weeks leave. What I thought was bad, was that at no time was I informed of the condition of the man I had hit. The first I knew that he had died was when I got the summons to Westminster coroners court. The coroner was Dr Paul Knapman, who presided over the Marchioness disaster inquest. On arrival in the court, a BTP officer asked if I was there for the Royal Oak one under. When I said that I was, he said 'We guessed he was a nutter when we got him to hospital, took his trousers off and found him wearing an orange loin-cloth' After all the evidence from myself, the doctors, and a security guard who had seen the man while patrolling the waste ground that is now the new office development at Paddington, a member of the family went on the stand and stated that they had been concerned about the state of his mental health, and that he had joined a 'strict religious sect'. The coroner then gave the jury the options of an open verdict, suicide or accidental. What surprised me was that he didn't give the option of misadventure. They came back with a verdict of accidental death. There were a couple of light moments in amongst it all, not least of which was the comment by the Area Manager. Apparently there had been a problem with a Jubilee line guard having gone missing in Neasden depot, which had caused a flurry of activity, until he was located sleeping on a train. The AM, controllers and others had all settled down for a cup of tea, waiting for their reliefs to arrive in the next few mins, when my Mayday came over. The AM made his way outside Baker Street station to get a cab to Royal Oak, when 2 BT coppers asked if he was going to Royal Oak. When he said he was, they told him to jump in the car with them. The AM told me, next time he will wait for the cab, as going down side streets with cars parked both sides, at 70mph, with hardly any room on either side was not his cup of tea On my retrun to work after 6 weeks off, I was straight back onto the front of the train, on my own. The only thing that had kept going through my head after the incident was, should I have seen him earlier and applied the brakes earlier. It wasn't until the next time I approached Royal Oak in the dark that I realised, the large bridge supports made it difficult to see much on the track due to the shadows they cast. That helped to settle my mind that there wasn't much more I could have done.
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Post by igelkotten on Mar 27, 2005 1:38:21 GMT
First of all, I must say that I am glad that you found my post to be so good. Secondly, I think that all posts in this thread have been very,very good -lots of food for thought.
Now, in my original post I mentioned a bit about how some relatives etc of persons killed on the railways react to that situation. By no means did I imply that all people react in the same manner, or that the reaction is even a common one. However, people do act differently -some starts a terror campaign against the driver, issuing death threats and so on, others try to get on with their life as best as they can. And even someone acting from good intentions can do harm to another person -a relative tracing the driver's home adress and showing up on the doorstep one day to "talk it all out" can be a very unwelcome and disruptive surprise, even if it is based on the best of intentions.
At the moment, on theStockholm tube, we have about 30-35 one unders (we call them PUT, passenger under train) per year -a decrease since the mid/late ninties, when we were having 50-something per year. This is partly due to rebuilding of stations, making it more difficult for unauthorized persons to go trackside, and partly because we no longer run a 24-hour service during weekends, as well as several other factors.
On top of this, we have a large number of near-misses, unreported incidents and so on. A large number of these cases have a connection to alchohol or other drugs. We also have some seasonal peaks -christmas, for example.
These numbers comes from a total of about 230 million passenger journeys per year.
Personally, I have actually never had a one under that has gone as far as a fatality. I have, however, literally lost count of all the times only blind luck has saved people. For example, I have had people throw themselves in front of the train, hit the windshield and leave a bloody crack, and then bounce back onto the platform, with only a broken nose and a concussion. And I can assure you that even a "miss" leaves scars on your psyche. While you can and should get over the incident and go on with your life, you can never forget.
And of course the stress on your psyche will impact your life. Some things are immideately obvious -sleeping badly, nightmares, difficult to relax. Others are more subtle. I know that I have become more irritable, more of a short fuse person, and sometimes a bit uncomfortable with crowds. Nothing serious, nothing big, but enough to sometimes make me pause and think "Hang on -why am I reacting in this way?"
And yes, sometimes you go to work with your stomach in a knot wondering if tonight is the night. But, as other posters have pointed out, I think that you develop a fatalistic attitude quite soon. You have to, in order to not eat yourself from the inside with brooding and anxiety. If it happens, inshallah, and if it does not happen, inshallah.
I have done a bit of work as a support person, working with colleagues who have had traumatic experiences (assaulted, PUT, whatever) and who are trying to go back to driving again. This is some of the most difficult, but also some of the most rewarding work I have ever done.
I believe that, while professional counselling can certainly be good, having a colleague to talk with who knows perfectly well what you are talking about, who can understand your concerns and knows what the job entails is absolutely indispensable. Having to spend a lot of time and effort to explain something that to you is obvious or taken for granted to someone who does not know anything about the job, except from a theoretical standpoint, is something that can be mentally exhausting, and make you feel as if you are the one who's on trial, who have to explain and justify all your actions -when it is all about the bastard who jumped.
Reading Jim's and Solidbond's interesting stories about their experiences, I can see several differences between Stockholm and London practice.
Here in Stockholm, all the driver has to do is to send out a mayday message over the radio, and notify control of what has happened and where. From there on, control takes over. Of course, if the driver absolutely feels like starting to evacuate the train and it can be done so safely, or anything else, nobody is going to stop him or her. But, since the driver is very probably in a state of shock (as the two tales in this thread testify), the reasoning is that the driver should do as little as possible.
At least three response cars are directed to the site. The first response unit arriving becomes the site control officer, repsonsible for coordination between rescue services, line control, power company, police and any other parties involved. The second unit arriving takes care of the driver, and the third one starts the evacuation of the train and the station. It is generally considered best to get the driver away from the train and the station before the evacuation starts, in order to cut down on any unpleasant situations.
PUT:s are generally treated as a matter for the rescue services, so normally the police will only be observing and aiding with crowd control and evacutaion. The incident site is usually documented anyhow. Once power is off and the third rail is earthed, the fire brigade and ambulance services picks up the PUT for transport to a hospital. After the train and station is cleaned off, a supervisor or other suitable person drives the accident train to the nearest depot for deep cleaning, datalog downloading and sometimes, if necessary, technical investigation.
The driver is taken to either his home depot or the line control centre, depending on his or her wishes and the time of the day. You get to have a chat with either one of your supervisors, or one of the line controllers, talk things over, try to calm down, and fill in a preliminary incident report. You are then taken home, and the general policy is that a person should not be left alone at home for any length of time. If necessary, a colleague may be phoned and asked if they can pop over to keep the driver company.
The next day, you get to meet a crew manager for more paperwork and a bit of talking about how you feel, if you need any professional counselling or other help, and when you think that you might want to try to go back into the cab again. You will also have to have a chat with a medical official sometime before going back into the cab.
The general idea is that the driver should not be alone, or given sick leave, but instead trying to get back to work at his or her own pace. The main thing is to keep the driver active -not let them sit alone and sink into brooding and anxiety attacks, and perhaps trying to drown their sorrows in alchohol. Thus, you are not on any kind of leave after a serious incident, but rather "stood down from safety related duties and at the disposition of the line management". Normally, you stay at home for a few days, popping by the offices every day to have a talk with people.
Then, you start going back into cabs again. At first, you will probably just ride along in the cab with another driver (someone with a bit of experience whom you get along with well), just to get a feel for it, including passing by the incident site. Then, when you get back to driving yourself again, you will have another driver with you as a support person, to help you, and to take over the train if things get too much for you.
We do not have any coroner's inquests, or anything similar here in Sweden. The only time the police will get really involved is if there was some very foul play involved in the incident -someone being pushed, for example. Otherwise, they normally consider the driver's incident report as statement enough.
Again, I think that this is a very interesting thread abut a very difficult subject. And I think that this thread is also an excellent illustration of my argument some days ago that yes, we should indeed discuss social topics, too, since they are a very important part of the railway and the people who work on it.
/Igelkotten
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Post by igelkotten on Mar 27, 2005 1:40:55 GMT
By the way, here is an account of one of my near misses that I wrote for another forum (not railway related) that might perhaps be of interest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2005 8:01:39 GMT
This thread deserves to be framed, guys - never before have I seen such honest, detailed information on a subject as sensitive as this.
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Post by chris on Mar 27, 2005 8:11:17 GMT
Although I have no real railway or councilling experience, I can't help but notice (as an independant 'observer') that Stockholm seem to go about the aftermath in a better way to London. It seems logical, but then again i suppose every driver will react differently.
What happens to the passengers on the platform since they witnessed it, and what if the person survives? Do they ever apologise to the driver?
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Post by Admin Team on Mar 27, 2005 9:53:44 GMT
Thanks to all who've contributed to this thread since my last post - particularly Solidbond and Igelkotten for their descriptions of their experiences. In the page 'Disjointed Jottings' I describe an incident of a 'near miss' (it can be read at www.trainweb.org/districtdave/html/disjointed_jottings.html so I'm not going to go through the whole story again) which I had (now about three years ago) and I touch there on the question of attitudes and reactions - both my own and those of others, and the difference that appropriate treatment will make to one's own recovery from such an event - I'm sure this plays an important part. London Underground has now introduced a 'buddy' system where a driver involved in an incident will be supported through such an event, whether a 'One Under', a 'Near Miss' or some other incident where it's appropriate, by a colleague who has received some training in such support. How much support is given is very much driven by the one who experienced the event and it can go right through the whole process, including interviews, the inquest and beyond. So this very much accords to Igelkotten's description. As for the 'process' demanded by LU at the time of the event there is an acceptance that although the driver should ideally do X, Y & Z he or she may not be in any condition to do any or all of these actions and they will be got away from the scene as quickly as possible. We've looked at how 'we' as Train Operators react, but let's not forget that others (staff and public) might quite possibly have witnessed the scene too. The following is an account of a friend of mine who's a Station Assistant who witnessed such an event. To put it into context, the guy in question used to be in the Royal Marines and later in the Metropolitan Police, so I think it's fair to say that he's seen his share of traumatic events. He works at one of the large central London stations, and on the night in question was dealing with the release of one of the last trains - they're actually 'lamped off' from every station - so he was down on the platform just before the end of traffic. A passenger arrived on the platform, rather flustered, and asked if he'd missed the last train. My friend assured him he hadn't and the bloke was rather relieved, and became less agitated, so my mate simply put it down to him being worried about getting home, and thought nothing of it. He heard the last train approaching and turned round, just in time to see the 'passenger' run from the wall against which he'd been leaning and throw himself off the platform, onto the front of the train and slide down into the 'pit'. All my mate could manage was to put out a radio call to his supervisor to tell what had happened, and after that he really remembers very little of what occured. In fact the man survived - he'd not quite timed his jump right and although he'd sustained a broken arm was actually able to walk to the ambulance. Of course, had the 'pit' not been there, he'd almost certainly have been killed. My friend was surprised at himself and how it affected him. He said that in his previous employments he'd seen far worse, but could only put that down to the expectation and probability of such scenes in those environments, whereas you don't expect to witness it on the railway. But he recovered, and went back to work, and still works at the same location now. The down side though was that his local management were not really interested in 'him' - there only enquiries were to see when he'd be resuming work; there was no interest in his well being. No-one else witnessed the event though; the platform had otherwise been deserted, but I'm sure that it must be an horrendous experience if you were to see such a thing as a regular passenger waiting for a train.
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Post by Admin Team on Mar 27, 2005 10:06:30 GMT
Although I have no real railway or councilling experience, I can't help but notice (as an independant 'observer') that Stockholm seem to go about the aftermath in a better way to London. It seems logical, but then again i suppose every driver will react differently. What happens to the passengers on the platform since they witnessed it, and what if the person survives? Do they ever apologise to the driver? I'd posted my last before I saw this Chris, and *think* I've probably addressed a number of the points you've raised already. As I mentioned, there is now a support system in place and I think too that Solidbond and Jim will agree that society in general is more aware of the need for support facilities 'post event'. As for the public though, I presume that it's very much a case that most will simply evacuate the area, probably get out of the system and then seek whatever help they need through their GP's. The only other thought I have is they can seek any assistance via victim support? Anyone in possession of any more information on this?
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Post by chris on Mar 28, 2005 9:04:58 GMT
throw himself off the platform, onto the front of the train and slide down into the 'pit'. In fact the man survived - he'd not quite timed his jump right and although he'd sustained a broken arm was actually able to walk to the ambulance. Of course, had the 'pit' not been there, he'd almost certainly have been killed. If he jumped into the pit, how come he wasn't electrocuted since there's a 3rd and 4th rail, one of which runs over the pit?
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Post by Dmitri on Mar 28, 2005 9:12:01 GMT
If he jumped into the pit, how come he wasn't electrocuted since there's a 3rd and 4th rail, one of which runs over the pit? If you're lucky enough, you can slip between them .
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Post by Admin Team on Mar 28, 2005 9:13:46 GMT
If he jumped into the pit, how come he wasn't electrocuted since there's a 3rd and 4th rail, one of which runs over the pit? I presume he must've been lucky and missed the live rails (and it's the negative rail that runs between the running rails). If he had touched the neggie, it would have been 'in passing' and though he would probably have received a jolt from it, I suppose he wouldn't have been in contact with it for more than a split second. Apart from anything else, if he'd landed on it, the underside of the train would probably have had an 'impact' on the situation!
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Post by thomas on Mar 28, 2005 12:07:08 GMT
hi,
about 2 months ago at dagenham east station on the district there was an incident where a man jumped out in front of a d stock, but he jumped to far he hit the offside of the cab and fell onto the gravel in between the east and westbound rails, then with his (i think) dislocated arm got up climbed onto the platform and walked off. the police were on the line walking up and down trying to find him and nothing
(dave did you hear about this because this is what i read in the local paper and you may know of the proper facts)
now his he lucky or not hitting the front of a 200 tonne d stock and getting up and walking away
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Post by montgomery on Mar 28, 2005 12:21:44 GMT
I think this is the person who then continued to travel on the underground and tried to jump in front of a Central Line train later that day.
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Post by thomas on Mar 28, 2005 13:03:16 GMT
im not sure i only know that part of the story, but it may well be
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Post by chris on Mar 28, 2005 17:48:02 GMT
Never a dull moment on the underground. Though we could do with less incidents like these!
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solidbond
Staff Emeritus
'Give me 118 reasons for an Audible Warning on a C Stock'
Posts: 1,215
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Post by solidbond on Mar 28, 2005 21:42:44 GMT
hi, about 2 months ago at dagenham east station on the district there was an incident where a man jumped out in front of a d stock, but he jumped to far he hit the offside of the cab and fell onto the gravel in between the east and westbound rails, then with his (i think) dislocated arm got up climbed onto the platform and walked off. the police were on the line walking up and down trying to find him and nothing (dave did you hear about this because this is what i read in the local paper and you may know of the proper facts) now his he lucky or not hitting the front of a 200 tonne d stock and getting up and walking away I remember this incident well. I was working that morning, and had got to Upminster, (by bus ) when I heard that there was 'one-under' at Dagenham East on the Westbound. I then heard that there had been a problem finding the person under the train. The thing was, there was another driver in the cab of the affected train, who had witnessed the person go under, so there was no question of both people being mistaken. After extensive searching, with nothing found, the train was run empty to Barking, and the service restored. It was only when the CCTV tapes were viewed, some 2-3 hours after the event, that they saw the man go under the train, then, upon checking the tapes for the EASTBOUND platform, they saw the man climb out from beneath the middle of either the first or second car, can't remember which one now, and he appeared to be holding his arm as if it was broken. However, it meant that at least one bogie had gone over him, and yet he had not really been badly injured.
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Post by chris on Mar 29, 2005 8:25:47 GMT
However, it meant that at least one bogie had gone over him, and yet he had not really been badly injured. Thats was lucky. In fact, that would be impossible. Wouldn't it? A few tonnes going over you and get a broken/dislocated arm? I don't know in detail what the underside of a train looks like, but i'm sure that you don't just get up and walk away like that.
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Post by Dmitri on Mar 29, 2005 9:14:49 GMT
I don't know in detail what the underside of a train looks like It is pretty dirty, with various stuff hanging . I've heard a story about a 'wise' man who - for the lack of the better entertainment - decided to lie down between the rails and wait until the train passes. He hadn't even been injured, only very dirty... but it took a conciderable amount of time and efforts to tear his hands away from the sleepers .
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Post by igelkotten on Mar 29, 2005 9:44:42 GMT
Thats was lucky. In fact, that would be impossible. Wouldn't it? A few tonnes going over you and get a broken/dislocated arm? I don't know in detail what the underside of a train looks like, but i'm sure that you don't just get up and walk away like that. That would very much depend on what train it is, how it is built, and how it hits you. Some vehicles do have a rather large amount of space between the underside equipment and the head of rail level (commonly used as a reference point), others, such as a London tube train, do not. We had an incident here in Stockholm some years ago where a little old lady fainted, fell of the platform, and was run over by a full-length train. Miraculously enough, she survived, with the back of her coat ripped to shreds, but otherwise relatively unhurt. This was because she was very small of stature, and, since she got a concussion from the fall, was unconcious enough to lie still as the train passed over her, instead of panicking and trying to get away. It is indeed a black irony that throwing yourself in front of a train is actually not that good as a suicide method. Speaking from Stockholm data, about 50% actually survive, although often with terrible injuries and lifelong disabilities (amputations, spinal injuries, paralysis, huge burns from electricity, damage to the central nervous system etc) as a result. So, in other words, it is indeed possible to be run over by certain trains in certain locations and survive relatively unhurt -although it can only be described as an enormous stroke of luck. Not something I would recommend as a hobby. /Igelkotten
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Post by Admin Team on Mar 29, 2005 13:33:14 GMT
Thats was lucky. In fact, that would be impossible. Wouldn't it? A few tonnes going over you and get a broken/dislocated arm? I don't know in detail what the underside of a train looks like, but i'm sure that you don't just get up and walk away like that. No, it's far from impossible, provided that you've been 'fortunate' enough not to land on either the running rail or on the current rail. As Igelkotten describes neither of these scenarios would do you much good! In fact (though I've never done it myself) I've heard of incidences where, in order to 'release' a victim, traction current has been recharged and the train moved whilst the victim is being stabilised by members of the emergency services - including our own Emeregency Response Unit and they're very well built lads! - so that the victim can be attended to 'in situ' before being removed from the track. Igelkotten is quite correct in the 'black irony' of this situation - it's not a reliable way to end it all; the survival (or failure rate) of this method of suicide is high.
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Post by trainopd78 on Mar 29, 2005 15:01:04 GMT
My friend is a paramedic and had to attend a course at Acton where the object of the exercise was to tend to a person under a train. On surface stock, there is a fair amount of room underneath as long as you avoid shoes etc. Tube stock however is a very different kettle of fish. No room whatsoever as the car's floor is a lot, lot lower with the newest stocks having the least. This is one of the reasons why there are suicide pits on tube platforms, but not on the sub surface platforms.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2005 16:22:00 GMT
This is one of the reasons why there are suicide pits on tube platforms, but not on the sub surface platforms. Slightly OT I know, but the Jubilee Line with it's PED's has suicide pits. I found that quite strange when I first saw that.
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