LO Rolling Stock

[kabsonline]

Hi

Not really having the chance to go on the new LO rolling stock, I was just wondering a few things:

1) How are they being looked after by passengers?
2) Are they a success?
3) What do people think of the interiors?

Thanks

[fleetline]

Nov 27, 2011 0:06:39 GMT kabsonline said:

Hi

Not really having the chance to go on the new LO rolling stock, I was just wondering a few things:

1) How are they being looked after by passengers?
2) Are they a success?
3) What do people think of the interiors?

Thanks

1) not sure what you mean here.
2) Yes. They are always busy units when ever I'm on them. They just feel a step up from the old 313.
3) it's subjective but I like them. Always remember the inside of the old grains being dark and confined. The new 378 stock feel open and spacious even when I can't get a seat and they are crowded.

[redbond]

Generally there's no problems with vandalism, there was a case of some large graffiti on a 172 at Gospel Oak Tuesday, but it was cleaned and back in service Wednesday morning (LOROL get massive fines for any graffiti or vandalism, so it's very rare to see any now!). You do see the rare scratches in windows but not much.

[dpb]

I really like them. Some people whinge about hard seats but I don't really notice them. They're bright, open, spacious, and in the summer, the air conditioning is AMAZING!

So much better than the cramped, uncomfortable 313s they replaced.

[Deleted]

There are quite a few criticisms of the 378's internal layout, but also the odd plaudit. So to answer your points:
1. Generally passengers are respecting the new stock, but you can't put your feet on the seat opposite, except on GO-B diesels, but few do. So they are kept clean, and the high standard is a requirement of the contract with LOROL.
2. Are they a success? The improved service definitely is, and the very high reliability is clearly down to Bombardier having the maintenance contract.
3. What do people think of the interiors? Some of our contributors quite like the new layout, but many dislike it; the seats are very hard and the fact that they all face inwards can make a crowded train a bit claustrophobic.

Personally I am not a fan, I would have liked some seating bays, and the stock could have had a small number of transverse facing bays, but only a few. But the new 378s are a big step up from 313s, which had become tired, rundown and very grubby. The GO-B 150s similarly needed a trip to works.
Which of course they have all had, with Southern or FCC (313s) and First's six 150s. Once overhauled they aren't so grotty, the 313s are quite swish for the old-folk of Eastbourne or Worthing, provided they don't need a loo!
Come and take a ride, but read the December edition of Modern Railways first (It's got S-Stock on the cover) Tells all!

Spelling error corrected 1 - 12. rp

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2011 0:06:39 GMT kabsonline said:

Hi

3) What do people think of the interiors?

Thanks

Personally, I don't like all the seats facing inwards. I think the S stock is much better with a mix of longitudinal and transverse seats. I like to look out of the window rather than at the passengers sitting opposite. I know there are arguments that longitudinal seating gives more standing room and therefore more capacity, but at the expense of tripping over everyone's feet.

Just my view.

[Deleted]

I like them, they're well kept and the journeys are a pleasure compared to the pain of the bad old days.

The seating has always been controversial in online discussions like these, but most users I know are pleased with the standing space as they just want to be able to get on the train, stand in a bit of personal space, then get off the train, all as quickly as possible. The layout is conducive to this and I've never found myself having to fight my way on or off - a frequent occurrence on the 313s. With the majority of journeys averaging under 15 minutes anyway, sitting isn't a priority for most people and even for the rest, turnover in the seats is fast. And if you really want to look out of the window you can always stand by the doors.

I've always thought the other point was a bit of psychology from TfL - they wanted to present LO as approaching the standard of a tube service - the 378 interiors set them apart from most mainline trains and more like tube stock with the seating layout. So beyond the new Johnston and the roundels the layout contributes to a tangible feel that this is a genuine TfL service, not just a re-badged rail franchise.

[Deleted]

I like them a lot, and they always seem to be clean and bright when I travel on them. I would have liked to have seen an S8-style seating layout, but on trains with so few carriages, I can see why that was bumped for all longitudinal seating. My one issue is the uncomfortable seats - if you're taking a long journey to avoid the centre of London (as TfL suggest through the pink Oyster readers, therefore a cheaper price) they become very painful very quickly.

[slugabed]

I use the Goblin at least once a week,and the new units there are a complete transformation in terms of passenger comfort.Compared to the old Silverlink units they are clean,bright,quiet,smooth and don't smell.
The seats are better and the seating arrangement very nice and traditional (plenty of 4-seat bays).
Coupled with the service improvements,which make the Goblin a "turn up and go" railway,this new stock has been an unqualified success in my opinion.

[Deleted]

So, there's your answer! Very mixed views for and against. Matt sums it up well 'they become very painful very quickly.' Meanwhile Paul has been seduced by the TfL argument that the majority of journeys are short, under 15 minutes, and Hackney's misguided Mayor that wants to pretend it's a tube line.
Yes there are a lot of short trips on two sections; the NLL east of Highbury into Hackney and on the ELL core section. Interestingly trip patterns on the ELL southern extensions are becoming longer as passengers switch from Southern to ELL, and passenger numbers just grow. Back on the NLL, trip lengths were always always a lot longer from points east of Highbury & Islington.
I don't like the 378 seats, they are uncomfortable, and the layout becomes claustrophobic, some suffer more than others, when the trains are heavily crowded. Yer pays yer money, takes yer choice.

PS: While I was drafting my comment, so was Slugabed! The GO-B 172s are a world away from the 378s! They have very reasonable seats and you can sit and look out of the windows. Very revolutionary concept this! Passenger comfort considered!
The cons of the 172s is they are already overcrowded in the peaks, and there are insufficient handrails, only the 'mickey-mouse' ear-shaped hand holds, which frankly are useless. I've moaned to LOROL management about this but nothing has happened so far.
Again the Modern Railways article notes the problems here Longer DMUs v electrification. Come back (refurbished) 313s all is forgiven! Seriously there is talk of extra stock for Southern post the Osborne statement, so if we get wires and 9 overhauled 313s back for GO-B, Southern can re-jig it's 377s to give the Worthing wrinklies (sorry!) trains with loos!
New stock for Southern to develop overground style services is another topic, but the Southern Inners running parallel to the ELL could have 5-car 376 / 378 clones to keep Bombardier in work.

[trt]

I quite like the 378s on the Watston Line. They are so much quieter (from the outside as well) than the old units and the through carriage is a revolution. The old SliverLinks had hard plastic seating in some cars which was impossible to sit on for even 5 minutes. I'm quite happy doing the 40 minute full-line trek on the new seats, though the number of guys who stretch out their legs right across the gangway is a bit of a pain.

[Deleted]

trt makes an interesting observation on the 378s on the Watford DC:

I quite like the 378s on the Watston Line. They are so much quieter (from the outside as well) than the old units and the through carriage is a revolution. The old SilverLinks had hard plastic seating in some cars which was impossible to sit on for even 5 minutes. I'm quite happy doing the 40 minute full-line trek on the new seats, though the number of guys who stretch out their legs right across the gangway is a bit of a pain.

Assume you mean the 313s, but I can NEVER remember any plastic seats? Unless there was some material trial? Anyone any ideas? The seats were a bit hard but they were the standard product from BR's York works for the 313 - 315s (still in the latter) also 507s, 508s and the three 455 variants. The 317s, the Bed-Pan electrics ended these 'basic' seats. Most of these low-backed seats have been replaced in recent refurbs.
378s definitely quieter, but 313s on the FCC/GN lines are by no means the noisiest EMUs.
As for the relative comfort of the DC lines, LOROL would only introduce the 378s in 4-car formation, but interestingly TfL are now saying there might be, in the longer term a 4-car sub fleet for both Watford DC and GO-B. Interesting.... Does this mean they still envisage Bakerloo or Met to Watford?

[Deleted]

In my opinion the 378's are a great succes.

[Deleted]

Dec 1, 2011 16:36:42 GMT @bronzeonion said:

In my opinion the 378's are a great succes.

I agree. Compared to the 313s, the 378s just feel much nicer to travel in. And I can even cope with the seats!

[Deleted]

The 313's were nice trains but didnt suit the line. Also the job the LO have done on the line is excellent, its actually useful now and I use it regularly on Finchley Road - Stratford journeys rather than being bored to death on a 96ts!

[Deleted]

I use 378s mainly on the DC line, from / to Watford, but also sometimes on the WLL (which does seem to have some pretty horrendous overcrowding problems in the peaks - the mayhem that is Clapham Junction during the evening peak has to be experienced to be believed!).

[astock5000]

Dec 1, 2011 13:35:24 GMT @ricp said:

trt makes an interesting observation on the 378s on the Watford DC:

I quite like the 378s on the Watston Line. They are so much quieter (from the outside as well) than the old units and the through carriage is a revolution. The old SilverLinks had hard plastic seating in some cars which was impossible to sit on for even 5 minutes. I'm quite happy doing the 40 minute full-line trek on the new seats, though the number of guys who stretch out their legs right across the gangway is a bit of a pain.

Assume you mean the 313s, but I can NEVER remember any plastic seats? Unless there was some material trial? Anyone any ideas?

I don't remember any 313s with plastic seats, or any non-standard type of seat - well, apart from when a cushion was missing! The seats were uncomfortable, but that was probably because the interiors weren't looked after that well by Silverlink.
The 378s are definitely an improvement. Although they have less seats than a 313, it seems you are less likely to stand as every seat is actually used by passengers, instead of two people often taking up 6 seats. The announcements can start to get annoying after a while though.

[trt]

I may have just been unlucky, or maybe I'm going senile, but I'm sure I had a couple of journeys in a 313 car where all the cushions and moquette were missing, leaving just bare plastic.

[Deleted]

This is turning into a very lively thread topic!

378 seats; fine gents if your back does not have a minor spinal problem like mine, (never detected in childhood, got worse ever since.) Sitting for even 30 minutes Richmond to Gospel Oak or Highbury is bloody uncomfortable with a stabbing pain in your left gluteous-maximus - this is serious hence use of medical term rather than Anglo Saxon / Barnsley dialect!

I have heard many more criticisms rather than plaudits, lack of just a few transverse seats, hardness and poor lumbar support, poor armrest design, and the 'bum-perches' are not wide enough for even two average size back-sides; I'll leave this as my last rant on 378 seats. It is not a TfL design classic, and the S-stock seating is not popular either.

Generally I must agree, 378s are a step change from 313s, which were very scruffy after 20 years on the NLL with minimal improvements. But other operators show what could be done, and you only have to look beyond platform 2 at Clapham Jct to see what SWT did to their 455/7 ex 508 trailers, built to the same design as 313 - 315s. This internal layout review provided a circulating area around the door-well, with much more space than the old 313 / 508 layout, and more seats than a 378. Also quite reasonable seating with lots of handrails. SWT's management is the one saving grace for Stagecoach, but that too is another issue. Southeastern's 376s, somewhat derided on the Hayes and Dartford lines show how some transverse seats might have been incorporated into 378s. I would challenge TFL to try this when the 5th 378 car is ordered.

Slugabed commented on how he enjoyed his weekly trips on GO-B. He can sit on a 172 and look at rooftops of Leyton without contorting himself! Perhaps colleagues might 'Compare and Contrast the seating layout and seat design of those provided in 378s -vs- 172s' Consider SWT upgrades to 455s and other refurbish to consider whether TfL did achieve the best results. Answer that as an examination question!

The 378s and 172s are the first new stock delivered to these routes for over half a century, 50+ years[/i], a damning indictment on a complacent railway management's perception of an important and very useful suburban link, whether public or private sector, in this case, BR then Nat Ex Silver link. 'Say no more', as Eric Idle would have said.

PS The Python connection is that one M. Palin's local station is Gospel Oak.

[trt]

Don't bring M. Palin into this. In his day, they were lucky if they found a bit of clean straw to sit on in't cattle truck. And if't train were even 1 minute late, management would flog 'em wi't belt.

[Deleted]

As a Conductor on both of these units i prefer the bench seat style arrangement on the class 378s. It makes my job easier and i dont often have to get myself in confrontation situations.

Which is in contrast to me working on a class 172, i note that it being mentioned that people treat these trains with a bit of respect. Frankly it is not true, i know that every single trip i work i have to tell at least two people to take their stinking feet of the seats. People think its ok to sit down and automatically put their feet on the seat opposite. Passengers are begining to treat the trains like something a dog has left behind and they have trod in it.

[castlebar]

@ Routemasterkeith

You said that there are so many people who put their feet on seats. As a conductor, is there a possibility that you are allowed to ask them for a second fare on the basis that they are occupying two separated seats? Would the availability of such a by-law discourage this filthy habit if there was plenty of "on-train publicity" that a second ticket for feet on seats is a sort of legally enforcable penalty fare? Just an idea. I think such publicity would stop most of it.

[redbond]

You'd be surprised at how many people put their feets on the seats on a 378 too! They sit sideways and have their feet on the seat, as if it's a chaise longue. It's usually teenage girls that I have to *politely ask* to desist! Funnily enough it's also usually when it's been raining outside and their feet are wet!

[bicbasher]

The fold up seats are my favourite on the 378, although most of the time I travel on the ELL, I'm either on it for less than 10 mins or standing up as they're so busy that I don't appreciate how hard the seats are.

[Deleted]

@ castlebar
The Conductors do not sell tickets on the trains on London Overground, the reason being is that it is a compulsory ticket area and therefore a Penalty fare area. Having Conductors selling tickets (a role they did before the Penalty fare was introduced) would help i would have no problem in charging for the occupation of two seats.

@ redbond

I am sorry i didnt mean to imply that feet on seats do not take place on a 378, its just that do not happen as often. When i am working on a 378 i tell them or just point to their feet (they get the hint). I do not know how they manage to do it as it looks like only a contortonist can do.

[edwin]

I don't really have a problem with people putting their feet on the seats as long as no-one else wants to sit there, and the base of their shoe is not touching the seat.

[plasmid]

Lol, what is it with everyone and hard seats? Stop complaining, at least they aren't plastic like on other metro's. I like harder seats any ways, and they last longer no doubt. I think the trains are fantastic, London Overground have done well with track, asset, signalling and train replacements.

[Deleted]

The seats are hard but they make you sit straight, I like that about them because then you dont get a numb rear because your not putting as much weight on your rear when you sit