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Post by radbod on Dec 10, 2011 22:50:23 GMT
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Post by alfie on Dec 11, 2011 9:37:23 GMT
Ridiculous..I'm not paying £40/80 for a 70p flat fare..
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Post by phillw48 on Dec 11, 2011 10:50:36 GMT
Ridiculous..I'm not paying £40/80 for a 70p flat fare.. If you have a ticket you won't have to pay it. |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Dec 11, 2011 13:25:07 GMT
Yea, just pay it. At least the Oyster penalty fare is much lower.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2011 17:06:20 GMT
To avoid a penalty fare, just buy a ticket, or validate yer Oyster!!! Its no use trying to buck the system, because they will catch you eventually!
I think the penalty should be £100... maybe reduced to £80 if paid promptly...
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Post by citysig on Dec 11, 2011 18:28:11 GMT
I think it should be even higher than that. Of course this is speaking as a Tfl employee - who pays my wages largely through the income it receives through fares.
I don't steal from you, why should it be "potentially cheaper" for you to steal from me.
Not too sure what the discussion is here?
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Post by alfie on Dec 14, 2011 19:45:26 GMT
I meant if I should forget to touch in.. paying over 10000% of what I woulda paid is a bit much. Course, if I have no Oyster and I am trying to get away with no ticket.. £80 is fare..  I can guess your reply 'Well, we dunno if you forgot! Cough up!' |
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Post by superteacher on Dec 14, 2011 22:40:39 GMT
I meant if I should forget to touch in.. paying over 10000% of what I woulda paid is a bit much. Course, if I have no Oyster and I am trying to get away with no ticket.. £80 is fare.. I can guess your reply 'Well, we dunno if you forgot! Cough up!' I'm with MetControl on this one. How many people use "I've forgotten" as an excuse? Solution - don't forget! |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 15, 2011 1:06:49 GMT
Much easier said than done when travelling on the DLR, particularly when it's not always immediately clear whether a touch has worked or not.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 15, 2011 8:06:08 GMT
MC, youre lucky in that your staff pass will let you in without the faff that people who are forced to use Oyster have. Not that thats an excuse, but if you have to travel and, for whatever reason, theres no way to overcome a problm with the Oyster there and then, whats likely to be the next step?
Comparing illegitimate use of public transport to theft of presumably private property indiscriminately is disingenuous in so many ways. It must be remembered there was a time when even free public transport in London looked cautiously achievable, so the notion of price and charge is fundamentally a political one nowadays rather than an ecconomic one.
There was a time when it was stated in the rule book (pre company plan) wrt fare revenue that if a person was caught without a ticket but was willing and able to pay the correct fare on the spot that this would be accepted. Personally I think this is a good condition as it sorts out people who would have/ment to pay from those don't.
Not against a high penalty fare per se, but if its applied by default as though the issue is black-or-white, then I'm not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 8:49:29 GMT
I don't understand the difficulties some people are having with Oyster. It is a fantastic system which is well thought out and excellent value for money; a complete contrast to the confusing and potentially prohibitive BR fare structure. And it beeps at you when you touch, you can't go wrong.
The difficulty the inspectors have is in handling today's culture of trying to beat the system. For example, where I live the bus drivers are now very alert to the practice of trying to board a bus unseen amongst the crowd in order to avoid touching; but they never seem to impose penalties except forcing the offender to pay up. I have seen many LU inspectors at work but I have only ever seen them book blatant offenders and I am sure they become accomplished in differentiating between the deliberate and the accidental.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 9:38:20 GMT
Most DLR stations, and quite possibly a few other places where a no barrier touch is required, could do with improved equipment placement. So many seem to miss the readers on DLR.
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Post by Chris M on Dec 15, 2011 10:04:36 GMT
It's also not always possible to hear a beep (or what sort of beep it was) in a crowd or when there is other noise around.
Most of the time it works fine, but not always - e.g. last time I was at Highbury and Islington, it let me through the barriers but didn't start a journey. I didn't notice this until I got a Gallions Reach-(incomplete) journey on my oyster history starting at the time I touched out.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 10:49:03 GMT
My Oyster is in my wallet and doesn't always work (seek assistance), but when following through a busy queue, I don't always notice and the journey doesn't start on my card. I now take my card out of my wallet (defeating the object) to tap in and out.
The eastern end of the DL is free at night after about 7pm as most gates are open or punters use the disabled gate. No chance of an inspector - never seen one in 40 years, but guess what will happen if I try to make use of the DL for free at night.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 11:02:11 GMT
There are many possible reasons as to why somebody might not have the correct ticket for their journey.
The penalty fare system is nothing more than a money making scam that often catches out innocent passengers.
Does anybody really think regular fare dodgers are going to give their correct names and address's if they are caught?
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 15, 2011 12:12:37 GMT
Ooooooo! Though I utterly agree with you about the myriad NR fares, I take serious exception at the above! Its getting better certainly, but some things that should have been available from day one (such as allowing station staff to correct faults on it) weren't, and sometimes still aren't. Also its only cheaper than paper fares because TfL want it to be the primary system. Put another way, if you re-introduced paper tickets and travelcards now, would the rate of Oyster increase in useage start to fall? Also Oyster beeps regardless what you do with it; good touch or bad touch! On the subject of revenue overall, how many millions was it that TfL have in unused money put on Oyster cards and forgotten about? All the while clocking up interest too... |
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Post by radbod on Dec 15, 2011 12:15:28 GMT
There are many possible reasons as to why somebody might not have the correct ticket for their journey. The penalty fare system is nothing more than a money making scam that often catches out innocent passengers. Does anybody really think regular fare dodgers are going to give their correct names and address's if they are caught? I partially disagree. The penalty fare system sometimes catches out innocent passengers. More frequently it catches out passengers that take the very occasional risk of, for example, not renewing their Travelcard for one day. I do agree with you that it does very little to catch regular fare dodgers. The systematic underfunding of BTP means that staff have very little hope of being able to hand them over to be dealt with properly. |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Dec 15, 2011 12:42:14 GMT
One day last summer, I bought a day travelcard once because it was cheaper for all the LU journeys l had to do. I also happened to have an Oystercard with about £8 credit on it, in my inside jacket pocket. As l went through the barrier at Hampton station, I heard a bleep but thought no more of it. When l tried to use that Oystercard on a 111 bus 3 days later, the driver told me there was nothing left on it, and charged me for a full fare. If that's how it "works", it actually doesn't work.
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Post by alfie on Dec 15, 2011 16:01:45 GMT
I meant if I should forget to touch in.. paying over 10000% of what I woulda paid is a bit much. Course, if I have no Oyster and I am trying to get away with no ticket.. £80 is fare.. I can guess your reply 'Well, we dunno if you forgot! Cough up!' I'm with MetControl on this one. How many people use I've forgotten as an excuse? Solution - don't forget! Not moaning about having to pay..just how much it is in proportion to my regular fare! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2011 19:44:12 GMT
As to the fine amounts, what multiple proportion of a standard fare would the panel regard as a sufficient deterrant to those deliberately bunking the system?
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Post by superteacher on Dec 18, 2011 21:15:06 GMT
I'm with MetControl on this one. How many people use I've forgotten as an excuse? Solution - don't forget! Not moaning about having to pay..just how much it is in proportion to my regular fare! The proportion to your normal fare is irrelevant! |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 18, 2011 21:31:30 GMT
Not moaning about having to pay..just how much it is in proportion to my regular fare! The proportion to your normal fare is irrelevant! Oh but it is, because it is intended as a deterrent: it has to be significantly more than the maximum fare that you could be avoiding paying - not the one for the journey you actually made! In the same way parking fines have to be more than the cost of a long term car park, otherwise people will find it cheaper to pay the fine. |
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Post by alfie on Dec 18, 2011 22:24:19 GMT
Not moaning about having to pay..just how much it is in proportion to my regular fare! The proportion to your normal fare is irrelevant! As opposed to what? |
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Post by superteacher on Dec 18, 2011 22:49:17 GMT
The proportion to your normal fare is irrelevant! As opposed to what? When related to the price of your fare. The fine needs to be, if anything, extremely disproportionate so as to act as deterrent to would be fare evaders. |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 19, 2011 0:16:12 GMT
It's not simply a matter of how much more the fine is compared to the fare, as the likelihood of being caught is taken into account by regular fare dodgers. For example if you only get caught on one trip in 20 that you make, if the fine is less than 20× the fare then it's worth risking the fine.
The supermarket car park in Cheddar is run by the council not the supermarket and so even a short stay is charged (up 1 hour was 50p as of about 18 months ago), the likelihood of being caught parking without a ticket during a short shop was infinitesimal so I was not alone in not bothering to pay. Even if I had been caught the fine was about £40 if paid promptly or 80 visits. So with a fine rate of less than 1 every ~15 months the fine was cheaper. In about 12 years I never got a ticket.
Obviously the detection rate on the DLR is much higher than that, but most of the times I've seen someone found having not touched in on their oyster the penalty was nothing more than being told to go and touch in and get the next train. On one occasion (possibly at Elverson Road) the miscreant was quick enough to get back on the same train.
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Post by alfie on Dec 19, 2011 9:36:45 GMT
I got caught on the DLR once having forgotten to touch in because I was in a hurry at South Quay..and it came up green for some reason. Was not arguing with that. When related to the price of your fare. The fine needs to be, if anything, extremely disproportionate so as to act as deterrent to would be fare evaders. Fair enough. Damn Fare evaders, making me pay more and more when the thought of touching in vanishes :/ |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2011 14:50:19 GMT
It's not simply a matter of how much more the fine is compared to the fare, as the likelihood of being caught is taken into account by regular fare dodgers. For example if you only get caught on one trip in 20 that you make, if the fine is less than 20× the fare then it's worth risking the fine. The supermarket car park in Cheddar is run by the council not the supermarket and so even a short stay is charged (up 1 hour was 50p as of about 18 months ago), the likelihood of being caught parking without a ticket during a short shop was infinitesimal so I was not alone in not bothering to pay. Even if I had been caught the fine was about £40 if paid promptly or 80 visits. So with a fine rate of less than 1 every ~15 months the fine was cheaper. In about 12 years I never got a ticket. Obviously the detection rate on the DLR is much higher than that, but most of the times I've seen someone found having not touched in on their oyster the penalty was nothing more than being told to go and touch in and get the next train. On one occasion (possibly at Elverson Road) the miscreant was quick enough to get back on the same train. That is all I have ever seen happen on the DLR, the person being told to get off at the next stop and get a ticket or touch in, whether they do or just wait for the next train and continue their free journey I don't know. |
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Post by Chris M on Dec 19, 2011 15:02:46 GMT
I have seen people ushered off the platform to go downstairs and touch in. Whether they did touch in or just wait at the bottom of the stairs until the train had gone I obviously don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2011 21:03:33 GMT
Well, a simply process to avoid having to risk being 'ushered off to touch in' would be to touch in, in the first instance! And that way, you avoid risking confrontation and embarrassing situations!
If you take a risk and don't pay, don't moan when you do eventually get caught.
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Dec 19, 2011 21:09:53 GMT
Also Oyster beeps regardless what you do with it; good touch or bad touch! Can't those things get a firmware update that double-beeps when it's a bad touch? |
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