cso
Posts: 1,043 
|
Post by cso on Dec 28, 2011 12:10:53 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Dec 28, 2011 12:35:59 GMT
It's being advertised with a photo of S stock because it's a photo of the production plant in general; not the trains they are supposedly going to produce; their official press release is here, so it are Electrostars (as I thought). Dunno what class though. |
|
Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
|
Post by Phil on Dec 28, 2011 12:36:13 GMT
Talking of S stock, I hope Bombardier make a better job of getting the new stock to work 'straight out of the box' than they have (so far....) with the S stock. It really is the 'last-chance-saloon' for them now. best news of all is that it forces Bob Crowe to say something positive for once  . |
|
|
|
Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 28, 2011 12:42:42 GMT
Hmmm......... Stock wont ever "work straight out of the box" as you put it. There will be plenty of smallish faults that need to be ironed out.
|
|
cso
Posts: 1,043
|
Post by cso on Dec 28, 2011 12:52:05 GMT
chrisvandenkieboom: I wasn't trying to imply that the S-Stock were there for any other reason other than making an observation which is relevant to this forum  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 22:44:04 GMT
Great news, for Bombardier, their suppliers, Derby, and the UK Engineering sector...
When I heard this on the radio, I sort of did a little jump for joy!
I think the class might just be an 'add on' to their existing 377 fleet... could be wrong however.
|
|
|
|
Post by andypurk on Dec 28, 2011 22:54:49 GMT
Great news, for Bombardier, their suppliers, Derby, and the UK Engineering sector... When I heard this on the radio, I sort of did a little jump for joy! I think the class might just be an 'add on' to their existing 377 fleet... could be wrong however. They've been ordered partly to replace the 23 x class 377/5 which were sub-leased to First Capital Connect for Thameslink services (along with 3 x class 377/2 from the December timetable change). These we due to be returned in 2013 but won't be coming back for several more years. Southern are therefore ordering 26 x 5 car units to replace the 26 x 4 car units with FCC. The 5 car units will also allow lengthening of more suburban trains to 10 cars and may release sufficient units to allow improvement in the Milton Keynes - Croydon service to half hourly. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 22:57:42 GMT
Yeah, I thought it had something to do with the sub-leased units!
I've heard plans for Southern to extend the MKC service a bit further to Rugby... I think Birm NS was their original goal, but there isn't much, if any capacity left there!
|
|
|
|
Post by astock5000 on Dec 28, 2011 23:15:06 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2011 23:22:52 GMT
Was just looking at that... got a pretty tight schedule to meet... I just hope there are some follow on orders from other TOC's....
|
|
|
|
Post by redsetter on Dec 28, 2011 23:26:47 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by tecchy on Dec 29, 2011 0:08:40 GMT
This is excellent news that Southern are planning to expand on their fleet to make some trains longer/ enhance their service.
Hopefully Bombardier will pull through without too many hiccups!
|
|
|
|
Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 29, 2011 0:18:31 GMT
Considering bombardier are mostly agency staff, it's not fantastic news. It is good but if they could sort out their manufacturing problems then maybe they would be up there with Siemens.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2011 0:26:36 GMT
Good to see the contract has been awarded and that they're due to be in service within two years from now.
The only thing that slightly concerns me is the phrase "sufficiently compatible". Does that mean they'll be able to work in multiple with current 377s or does it just mean the components are similar for maintenance purposes?
Great news either way though.
|
|
|
|
Post by mcmaddog on Dec 29, 2011 9:53:56 GMT
The only thing that slightly concerns me is the phrase "sufficiently compatible". Does that mean they'll be able to work in multiple with current 377s or does it just mean the components are similar for maintenance purposes? The Railnews website mentions it's because they'll have the body of a 379 rather than a 375/377 however electrically they'll be compatible with the 377s. |
|
Phil
In memoriam
RIP 23-Oct-2018
Posts: 9,473
|
Post by Phil on Dec 29, 2011 12:37:54 GMT
Hmmm......... Stock wont ever "work straight out of the box" as you put it. There will be plenty of smallish faults that need to be ironed out. Considering bombardier are mostly agency staff, it's not fantastic news. It is good but if they could sort out their manufacturing problems then maybe they would be up there with Siemens. Spoken like a true engineer! Argue both sides of the argument in the interests of fairness. It's just a shame that most (granted not all....) of the S stock problems are due to manufacturing issues not technical ones . |
|
|
|
Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 29, 2011 13:49:26 GMT
This is true Phil. I would much prefer to see more Siemens or Alstom stock here in the UK as opposed to Bombardier. However, should Bombardier start doing things on their own like not sourcing parts from a thousand suppliers (which I hasten to add will just cause more problems, RE: S stock) then maybe things would be better for them. Last I heard there are a fair few ToCs that are looking at lengthening or replacing stock and the name Bombarider have given themselves isn't a very reputable one.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 0:31:35 GMT
These last few posts have made me think; how good is Bombardier? Or, perhaps, how good are their products and how much better could they be? Indeed, is Bombardier only in the UK because they see us as a soft touch to boost their profits (through subsidies) as opposed to having to earn them? I have also seen at first hand the cynicism regarding the quality and reliability of the S stock and the negatives regarding Bombardier posted in this forum's recent thread following the Crossrail award.
The heritage of the Derby manufacturing plant is beyond repute and I must say that, compared to the A stock, I personally like the S stock apart from its ridiculous seating arrangement. And, like most Brits, I believe we need our own train manufacturer and since Bombardier is the only contender I desperately want them to succeed. But I recently travelled for the first time on a Heathrow Connect train, which is made by Siemens, and I must say there is no comparison, it made the S Stock feel like riding in a dodgem car. Of course I am aware of the arguments regarding small wheels etc, but I am left with the feeling that Bombardier has become complacent and that as a consequence we are accepting second best.
There are many experienced railwaymen on this forum, I would welcome their views.
|
|
|
|
Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 30, 2011 0:44:54 GMT
Firstly you cant really compare a 360 to the S stock as they are 2 completely different stocks built for completely different specifications.
Personally I think Bombardier are pretty rubbish. Too many people have their fingers in the great 'Bombardier pie' which has made the company hit the downward spiral.
Get rid of them, sell the Derby plant to Siemens and let the real professionals do the work.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 1:07:46 GMT
Firstly you cant really compare a 360 to the S stock as they are 2 completely different stocks built for completely different specifications. Personally I think Bombardier are pretty rubbish. Too many people have their fingers in the great 'Bombardier pie' which has made the company hit the downward spiral. Get rid of them, sell the Derby plant to Siemens and let the real professionals do the work. Sorry to express such ignorance, can you expand on the difference between the 360 and S? From the passenger's perspective they are both trains offering similar daily suburban services. Why shouldn't they provide the same level of comfort? Regarding Siemens, I have worked extensively in Germany and agree their trains are good; the ICE is exceptional. It doesn't mean, however, that they would want to buy the Derby plant! |
|
|
|
Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 30, 2011 1:34:09 GMT
They are built to different specifications in the sense of the S stock is light rail, rapid transit. It will carry more passengers per mile than the 360. The 360 is built for longer journeys therefore the suspension system -despite being almost similar- is built to carry a heavier vehicle body at higher speeds. Seating will also be completely different as S stock is more of a cattle truck! Can you see where this is going?
ICE trains are exceptional, I personally cannot wait until we get the first delivery of the Valero 'D'.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 2:40:43 GMT
This is true Phil. I would much prefer to see more Siemens or Alstom stock here in the UK as opposed to Bombardier. However, should Bombardier start doing things on their own like not sourcing parts from a thousand suppliers (which I hasten to add will just cause more problems, RE: S stock) then maybe things would be better for them. Last I heard there are a fair few ToCs that are looking at lengthening or replacing stock and the name Bombarider have given themselves isn't a very reputable one. Alstom have made some really bad trains in the UK the following classes come to mind 175, 180 458, 460 EMUs with Brush currently sorting out the Class 180's and the 460's standing idle! Bombardier may have had some issues however they produce good trains. Alstom's failure with what IMO was the ugliest and most useless EMU in the UK when first introduced - the Class 458, is the main reason that SWT went to Siemens for the Desiros 444 and 450 EMU's Lets support the guys in Derby and try and keep some engineering expertise in the UK. XF |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 9:50:08 GMT
I previously traveled daily on Southern's service. I would despair if a Class 455 or 456 pulled into London Bridge. Even after these were retro-fitted in the early 2000s, they still had regular mid-journey failures, jerky rides, slow acceleration, bad ventilation and a bad PA system. In comparison the 377s Southern operate are smooth, reliable (from a passenger perspective), quick and comfortable. I'm really glad Bombardier have been awarded this new contract as with this class of train they've proved to be up there with the best.
As an aside the Desiros (Class 380) introduced into Scotland were sent back/refused further delivery due to poor build quality and numerous faults found during Scotrail's testing. So Siemens (or any one train manufacturer for that matter) don't set the benchmark for quality.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2011 9:57:27 GMT
The Electrostar and Turbostar range in my opinion are excellent, with the Southeastern Class 375 units being my favourite mainline EMU's in the country. They balance comfort, aesthetics and ride quality well. Whereas with Desiro EMU's they compromise comfort for maybe a little more help in the reliability sector, the ride quality on the Desiro is excellent on good track, but on bad track or harsh points its like a bloody earthquake!
|
|
|
|
Post by eurostarengineer on Dec 30, 2011 12:04:14 GMT
Just take a look at the Hybrid AGC unit over in France.... Biggest pile of w**k I have seen!
Xercesfobe - I would prefer Siemens. Alstom are good at making trains from complete scratch right down to the nut and bolt. They don't source everything out outside suppliers which is the way to go when building trains as it keeps reliability UP and finger-pointing down!
If you want proof, take a look at my 373's. 'Ard as nails they are.
However, we shall see what happens this time, maybe they have learnt their lesson about the build quality of their stock. Don't get me wrong, MITRAC is absolutely brilliant, as well as their FLEXX high speed bogies....
anyway we will wait and see what happens.
|
|
|
|
Post by andypurk on Dec 30, 2011 12:38:22 GMT
This is true Phil. I would much prefer to see more Siemens or Alstom stock here in the UK as opposed to Bombardier. However, should Bombardier start doing things on their own like not sourcing parts from a thousand suppliers (which I hasten to add will just cause more problems, RE: S stock) then maybe things would be better for them. Last I heard there are a fair few ToCs that are looking at lengthening or replacing stock and the name Bombarider have given themselves isn't a very reputable one. Alstom have made some really bad trains in the UK the following classes come to mind 180, 185 458, 460 EMUs with Brush currently sorting out the Class 180's and the 460's standing idle! Bombardier may have had some issues however they produce good trains. Alstom's failure with what IMO was the ugliest and most useless EMU in the UK when first introduced - the Class 458, is the main reason that SWT went to Siemens for the Desiros 444 and 450 EMU's Lets support the guys in Derby and try and keep some engineering expertise in the UK. XF It is interesting that, with a bit of work, the class 458 are now up with the class 450/444 in the reliability measures. Both types being well above the class 375/377 Electrostars. The mistake made by Alstom was probably not providing sufficient support during the initial entry into service. The Class 460 being out of use isn't really due to underlying problems, but due to the changing of Gatwick Express trains to run through to Brighton in the peaks. A small fleet of 8 car trains doesn't really fit into a 12 car railway (the replacement 2 x 5 car class 442 are formed of longer coaches so are about the same length as a 12 car class 377). The class 460s will now see re-use combined with the class 458s on SWT. The class 185 are also near the top of the DMU reliability tables. |
|
|
|
Post by fleetline on Dec 30, 2011 16:33:03 GMT
Great news, for Bombardier, their suppliers, Derby, and the UK Engineering sector... When I heard this on the radio, I sort of did a little jump for joy! I think the class might just be an 'add on' to their existing 377 fleet... could be wrong however. They've been ordered partly to replace the 23 x class 377/5 which were sub-leased to First Capital Connect for Thameslink services (along with 3 x class 377/2 from the December timetable change). These we due to be returned in 2013 but won't be coming back for several more years. Southern are therefore ordering 26 x 5 car units to replace the 26 x 4 car units with FCC. The 5 car units will also allow lengthening of more suburban trains to 10 cars and may release sufficient units to allow improvement in the Milton Keynes - Croydon service to half hourly. No 10 car railway won't help the Milton Keynes at all. The situation is is these five cars will help Southern operate all services via Balham to be 10 car in Decemeber 2013, which is a franchise agreement. The dual voltage 377/2 Southern have too many other duties to be free to expand the Milton Keynes service. It is currently planned to run these services every 30mins as 8 cars in the peak once all the 377/5 return from FCC. This currently looks possible to happen by the Decemeber 2015 timetable change at very best but I'd say May 2016 is more likely and that's without the platform extensions that have yet to be funded. Off peak a 30min 4 car service is expected to be provided. Back to the Southern units, they are now to be known as class 377/6 units that will be fully compatable with all other 377's including FCC's. It is ironic that the sublease to FCC is going to outlast both FCC and Southern. Yeah, I thought it had something to do with the sub-leased units! I've heard plans for Southern to extend the MKC service a bit further to Rugby... I think Birm NS was their original goal, but there isn't much, if any capacity left there! There is no plan to extend the Southern service to Rugby. It used to be a Rugby - Brighton service under Connex but was cut back to Watford due to work on the West Coast. It was re-extended back to Milton Keynes as the southern end was moved to Croydon rather than Brighton. Future plans to make the service 8 cars will see the service turned a Bletchley due to the fact that the turn back the service uses at Milton Keynes is only 4 cars long. They can't use any other platforms to reverse as they are all currently in use let alone the extra services LM want to run. While 8 cars will terminate at Bletchley, 4 car services will continue to Milton Keynes as now. |
|
|
|
Post by andypurk on Dec 30, 2011 19:28:03 GMT
They've been ordered partly to replace the 23 x class 377/5 which were sub-leased to First Capital Connect for Thameslink services (along with 3 x class 377/2 from the December timetable change). These we due to be returned in 2013 but won't be coming back for several more years. Southern are therefore ordering 26 x 5 car units to replace the 26 x 4 car units with FCC. The 5 car units will also allow lengthening of more suburban trains to 10 cars and may release sufficient units to allow improvement in the Milton Keynes - Croydon service to half hourly. No 10 car railway won't help the Milton Keynes at all. The situation is is these five cars will help Southern operate all services via Balham to be 10 car in Decemeber 2013, which is a franchise agreement. The dual voltage 377/2 Southern have too many other duties to be free to expand the Milton Keynes service. It is currently planned to run these services every 30mins as 8 cars in the peak once all the 377/5 return from FCC. This currently looks possible to happen by the Decemeber 2015 timetable change at very best but I'd say May 2016 is more likely and that's without the platform extensions that have yet to be funded. Off peak a 30min 4 car service is expected to be provided. So what will the displaced class 377/2 units do, once the class 377/6 units are delivered and the extra 10 car services begin? Every 377/6 displaces a four car unit to be used elsewhere (or every pair displaces 1 x 4 car and 2 x 3 car if the train is already 10 cars). There should be sufficient units available for enhancing the West London line timetable, even if only off-peak. The current timetable only needs four units for the Milton Keynes - Croydon service and these are some of the most overcrowded peak services which I use. Of course, according to DfT plans, by then the FCC and Southern franchises will have been merged, so any sub-lease will be academic. Of course, the bay platform at Milton Keynes wasn't really meant for the Southern service, it was originally put in for the planned Oxford and/or Aylesbury - Milton Keynes service. At the time it was planned, the Southern service was still running to Rugby, before being cut back to Watford. Running 8 car trains to/from Bletchley in the peak may not be easy, as paths are needed across the Up slow to get down trains into the reversal point (whether platform or siding). |
|
|
|
Post by norbitonflyer on Dec 30, 2011 21:06:34 GMT
I would despair if a Class 455 or 456 pulled into London Bridge. Everything's relative - compare them with what SWT did to theirs - not enough seats, those left too close together, and with such high seat backs you feel really confined - and nothing for standees to hold on to or lean on. If SWT inherits the 456s, as has been suggested, I do hope they leave them exactly as they are! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2011 0:08:31 GMT
norbitonflyer, maybe you've missed the more subtle point that before refurb of the 455/6s the quality of passenger experience was not ideal but also after the refurb while the passenger experience was improved, it was none far from being the best that could have been expected. I do appreciate that the 456s were an improvement on the trains that came before them and that different TOCs have redevloped their stock in different manners. The overriding point I was attempting to make, is that Bombardier have on occasion produced better trains than BREL (who made the 455/6s) and also on ocassion made better trains than Siemens. Siemens have on occasion made better trains than Bombardier but no one manufacturer has exclusivity on quality. In other words, I agree entirely with your premise that everything is relative. |
|
.
