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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2012 14:11:44 GMT
Anyone know how far the thinking has progressed on the following possibilities:
1. Extend the LO ELL from Crystal Palace to join Clapham Junction, via Gipsy Hill, West Norwood, Streatham Hill, Balham, Wandsworth Common
2. LO trains eventually going into Victoria via Battersea Park once Southeastern franchise expires or, if renewed, DfT and TfL manage to reach an agreement re compensation for loss of revenue.
Are these still on the LO "wish list"?
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 8, 2012 20:47:25 GMT
I didn't know either of those was on the cards, but I'm not sure i see the point of them - is there a huge demand for travelling from e.g Brocley to CJ?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2012 7:40:55 GMT
I wasn't sure either of these were on the cards though I know the government have promised to look at the possibility of turning some suburban routes into a LO franchises (as the current franchises expire).
Having lived in south London all my life, I can categorically say there is huge demand for improved east west routes and more regular north south routes. The bus routes are already packed and South London's streets simply do not have enough room for additional cars...
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 9, 2012 23:23:16 GMT
I wasn't sure either of these were on the cards though I know the government have promised to look at the possibility of turning some suburban routes into a LO franchises (as the current franchises expire). was published a few months ago See Figure 2.1 - this suggests TfL adoption of: Crossrail, Abellio's Chingford/Enfield/Hertford services FCC's Welwyn and Hertford loop services Thameslink services not going north of Luton or south of Croydon SWT services except the Reading line and those going beyond Woking Southern services going except those going beyond Dorking, those going straight on at Purley, and the Oxted line South Eastern services as far as Dartford and Sevenoaks. Curious omissions (probably oversights) include the Greenford and Romford/Upminster branches |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2012 6:19:27 GMT
I've read the report (thanks for the link), and noticed that in most cases TfL would share a line with other TOCs. Surely it would be better to have either all or none of the suburban services on one line by TfL, not some. Because it would be easier (timetables, marketting, service frequency) to have just one operator for th line.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2012 7:37:04 GMT
Thanks norbitonflyer, I'll take a read over the weekend.
video, lines are often already shared by multiple TOCs. For example LO's ELL (ex) shares it's tracks and route with FCC & Southern.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Feb 10, 2012 9:04:28 GMT
....... noticed that in most cases TfL would share a line with other TOCs. . In general, where they share a line of route, they would not actually share the same tracks, as most of the routes are 4-tracked at least. As with the existing routes to Upminster, Harrow on the Hill, and Watford Junction, TfL services would generally use the slow lines (dc lines on the WCML) and the other TOC the fast. This is why, for example, the Cobham line to Guildford is included. The main exceptions would be where there is both a local and long distance service on a double track line: Lea Valley line (Stansted/Cambridge services) Thameslink central section (Bedford-Brighton fast services) Waterloo-Virginia Water (Reading services) Balham-Sutton-Dorking (Horsham services) Charlton-Dartford (Gravesend and Gillingham services) Victoria - Shortlands - Ockham (via Catford and via Kent House) - Chatham main line and Maidstone services |
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Post by DrOne on Feb 13, 2012 8:42:22 GMT
Moorgate to Hertford/Welwyn would be a good one to take over. It would be a good opportunity to promote and extend the hours of the Finsbury Pk-Moorgate bit.
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Post by bicbasher on Feb 13, 2012 22:39:30 GMT
I didn't know either of those was on the cards, but I'm not sure i see the point of them - is there a huge demand for travelling from e.g Brocley to CJ? There's already a 2tph service from Brockley to CJ provided by Southern which is well used. video, lines are often already shared by multiple TOCs. For example LO's ELL (ex) shares it's tracks and route with FCC & Southern. FCC and LO don't share the same lines between NXG and Norwood Junction. LO share with Southern on the slow line. FCC are on the fast with Southern's mainline services. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2012 12:44:21 GMT
There's already a 2tph service from Brockley to CJ provided by Southern which is well used. Indeed, I use it to avoid Zone 1 when commuting from New Cross Gate to Kingston. Although the majority of usage seems to be between Crystal Palace and CJ. |
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Post by bicbasher on Feb 15, 2012 0:54:20 GMT
There's already a 2tph service from Brockley to CJ provided by Southern which is well used. Indeed, I use it to avoid Zone 1 when commuting from New Cross Gate to Kingston. Although the majority of usage seems to be between Crystal Palace and CJ. You'd be surprised, the morning peak has a steady flow of pax at Forest Hill who use it to commute to Victoria as an alternative to the very slow 185 bus. I commuted from Balham to Forest Hill on that line with a 4 car 377 and that was busy all the way. |
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Post by fleetline on Mar 26, 2012 16:31:34 GMT
Anyone know how far the thinking has progressed on the following possibilities: 1. Extend the LO ELL from Crystal Palace to join Clapham Junction, via Gipsy Hill, West Norwood, Streatham Hill, Balham, Wandsworth Common 2. LO trains eventually going into Victoria via Battersea Park once Southeastern franchise expires or, if renewed, DfT and TfL manage to reach an agreement re compensation for loss of revenue. Are these still on the LO "wish list"? 1) It's number one prior after ELLX Phase 2 is completed this year. Although its unlikely to happen any time soon. Especially in the light of Southern running all services via Balham as 10 car in the peak from December 2011. 4 car LO service won't be so welcome in peak. 2) Off the cards until 2020 at the earliest. More likely TfL takes over SET's Metro franchise area. As for before then, the multi million pounds a year it will cost will see it sunk before it gets off the drawing board. Currently it's more likely that TfL will invest money into new franchises to provide better facilities at stations and earlier/later trains. This is already happen with the Southern Metro area. Who cares who runs the trains if a franchise and the TfL can work together for the benefit of London. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2012 17:13:49 GMT
Croxley ? ;D
XF
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slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
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Post by slugabed on Mar 26, 2012 18:18:54 GMT
2.LO trains eventually going into Victoria via Battersea Park once Southeastern franchise expires or, if renewed, DfT and TfL manage to reach an agreement re compensation for loss of revenue. As I understand it,the formation making this possible will be blocked by the extensions planned for the Brighton Line platforms at Battersea Park,and will be abandoned. Has there been a change of plan? |
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Post by revupminster on Apr 6, 2012 19:46:25 GMT
The cheapest extention involving a couple of new trains would be Barking to Grays. They were also supposed to add a third carriage.
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Post by peterc on Apr 7, 2012 11:11:04 GMT
While we have a Tory mayor and Tory shire authorities the extensions will not be too controversial. But if Livingstone is re-elected the residents of places like Hertford and St Albans might start screaming because they have no say in who runs their railway.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 11:24:21 GMT
That's true. I don't agree with this 'take-down' of services, as it means more operators on the same line, and would result in an almost monopoly of the suburban rail network.
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Post by alfie on Apr 7, 2012 11:32:25 GMT
They were also supposed to add a third carriage. They don't wanna do that, incase it gets electrified and they want new trains for more capacity.. |
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Post by revupminster on Apr 7, 2012 12:19:45 GMT
The platforms have only been adapted for three carriages
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Post by andypurk on Apr 9, 2012 12:58:32 GMT
The platforms have only been adapted for three carriages Don't forget that the class 172s have longer carriages (at 23m) than the class 378 units (at 20m), so a platform fit for a three car class 172 won't need much extra work for a four car class 378 to fit. Most of the stations already have much longer platforms than 80m, just in a partially disused state. As has been mentioned before, the only problem station is South Tottenham, being stuck between junctions. |
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Post by charleyfarley on Apr 9, 2012 16:35:25 GMT
Reading reply #3, I wonder if the Greenford branch has ever been in any danger of being closed completely - especially in the days then it was Ealing Broadway-Greenford only. I used to be waiting on Ealing Broadway westbound for a train to Southall, and see the cute little DMU in its siding waiting to go back to Greenford. When my train arrived and passengers boarded, there would only be one or two folk remaining on the platform for the imminent Greenford service.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Apr 9, 2012 18:41:50 GMT
The Ealing - Greenford was never seriously under threat in the 60s - 70s when a couple of senior Paddington staff lived in the "posh houses" on the Ealing side of Castlebar station. In the early 60s the last train to Greenford left after the last bus, so was always full. Thus, in typical railway fashion, the last two trains of the day were withdrawn about that time.
Ealing North was also a marginal constituency before boundary changes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2012 23:40:17 GMT
People always talked about the GOBLIN being the Cinderella line of London, but surely Greenford is more deserving of that title especially now.
Much like the GOBLIN ten years ago, local residents don't treat it as a serious transport option because of the poor frequency - indeed, 2tph and no Sunday service is precisely what the GOBLIN was 10 years ago.
The Crossrail fudge of running 4tph from Greenford to a terminus at West Ealing is hopeless. Who in their right mind wants to go to West Ealing?
The Greenford branch needs an active advocacy group, like the well-organised BGOLUG, to promote usage and get the line on the map. The easiest "solution" would seem to be for it to be somehow absorbed into the central line - perhaps along the lines of Hainault-Woodford - but no-one's going to spend that sort of money unless there's a serious upturn in ridership. A chicken and egg problem I fear.
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Post by andypurk on Apr 10, 2012 0:22:04 GMT
People always talked about the GOBLIN being the Cinderella line of London, but surely Greenford is more deserving of that title especially now. Much like the GOBLIN ten years ago, local residents don't treat it as a serious transport option because of the poor frequency - indeed, 2tph and no Sunday service is precisely what the GOBLIN was 10 years ago. The Crossrail fudge of running 4tph from Greenford to a terminus at West Ealing is hopeless. Who in their right mind wants to go to West Ealing? The Greenford branch needs an active advocacy group, like the well-organised BGOLUG, to promote usage and get the line on the map. The easiest "solution" would seem to be for it to be somehow absorbed into the central line - perhaps along the lines of Hainault-Woodford - but no-one's going to spend that sort of money unless there's a serious upturn in ridership. A chicken and egg problem I fear. When I lived near West Ealing, the Greenford - Paddington trains picked up most of their custom from West Ealing and Ealing Broadway (unless the Central line was having problems). I would say that a 4 tph shuttle, from West Ealing to Greenford, will be much more suited for passengers than the existing 2 tph service. It will be a shame that the shuttle can't reach Ealing Broadway, but that would be a very expensive option if keeping clear of the Relief lines. At least a shuttle will serve the Waitrose at West Ealing.  Of course, the main problem with the branch is that it is so short (2 1/2 miles from West Ealing to Greenford). At least the service is 2 tph, unlike the service at local stations between Marylebone and West Ruislip. |
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Post by redsetter on Apr 10, 2012 4:57:35 GMT
I wasn't sure either of these were on the cards though I know the government have promised to look at the possibility of turning some suburban routes into a LO franchises (as the current franchises expire). Having lived in south London all my life, I can categorically say there is huge demand for improved east west routes and more regular north south routes. The bus routes are already packed and South London's streets simply do not have enough room for additional cars... this has been mentioned before as "the london regional rail authority" in the early-mid 2000s,it fell problematic due to questions arising to the mayor's powers to influence outside the greater london boundary.and how it would be bad for private business. www.tfl.gov.uk/static/corporate/media/newscentre/archive/4359.html www.alwaystouchout.com/project/66 |
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Apr 10, 2012 7:10:10 GMT
The Ealing - Greenford is certainly London's Cinderella Line now. About 100 years ago there was talk of joining the 2 x (now both closed and lifted) GWR Uxbridge branches and forming a circular service. Such visionary thinking is now extinct.. Chiltern COULD run to Heathrow via the (disused for pax) Hanwell chord. The Crossrail proposal to terminate services @ W Ealing is the worst possible (but easiest) option.
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Post by alfie on Apr 10, 2012 8:01:21 GMT
Can someone please explain why terminating at West Ealing is so bad..? Can always change for Crossrail..
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Post by andypurk on Apr 10, 2012 11:35:56 GMT
The Ealing - Greenford is certainly London's Cinderella Line now. About 100 years ago there was talk of joining the 2 x (now both closed and lifted) GWR Uxbridge branches and forming a circular service. Such visionary thinking is now extinct.. Chiltern COULD run to Heathrow via the (disused for pax) Hanwell chord. The Crossrail proposal to terminate services @ W Ealing is the worst possible (but easiest) option. Why is a 4tph shuttle to West Ealing worse than a 2tph through service to Paddington? One Crossrail has opened, changing at West Ealing will be better than changing at Paddington for Central London destinations. Even without Crossrail, it is likely that the branch would be truncated, due lack of capacity for long distance services at Paddington. As I said, the service is still better than the Sudbury stations on the Chiltern route (1 or 0 tph off peak). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2012 23:10:52 GMT
Reading reply #3, I wonder if the Greenford branch has ever been in any danger of being closed completely - especially in the days then it was Ealing Broadway-Greenford only. I used to be waiting on Ealing Broadway westbound for a train to Southall, and see the cute little DMU in its siding waiting to go back to Greenford. When my train arrived and passengers boarded, there would only be one or two folk remaining on the platform for the imminent Greenford service. Interesting, I didn't know there was a siding at Ealing Broadway - I guess it would have been between the fast and slow lanes east of the station? Plenty of room there anyway. Out of curiosity, what was stopping at Acton Main Line and Westbourne Park if it not the Greenford service? And back on topic, having commuted on that service a couple of years ago I can definitely say it was pulling the numbers into Paddington.. there was certainly some sad faces when it rolled into Acton Main Line on occasion ;D |
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Post by charleyfarley on Apr 11, 2012 2:29:43 GMT
In British Rail days, there were Paddington-Hayes services stopping all stations with Paddington-Slough services stopping at certain times.
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