Why doesn't 2009ts have walk-through carriages?

[Deep Level]

Both the Class 378's and S Stock Trains were built with walk-through carriages and LU are proposing future trains to also have walk-through carriages so that leaves me with the question, why doesn't the 2009 have walk-through carriages?

[mcmaddog]

I wondered this too and without any knowledge I'm guessing that without aircon you need the end of car windows to throw air in. I'll stop now and leave it to the experts ...

[Deleted]

Cost cutting I'd imagine, bloody glad too! Some things like the inter car doors make a tube train, a tube train!

[Chris M]

This has been discussed before, and I'm pretty sure the answer is that there isn't space for a walk-through area that is larger than the current inter-car doors and so there isn't sufficient benefit to justify the cost of them.

[Colin]

I remember the thread but I wouldn't like to say how easy it'd be to find.

Walk-through on 09ts was definitely seriously considered though; I remember that much.

[tubeprune]

I don't know where the thread is but walk-through 09 Stock was considered. I can't remember the details now but we did have a lot of discussion over the requirement in LU Standards (then) for a doorway between cars of a certain dimension. It was believed to be for fire containment purposes. It was thought we could get a derogation so we did discuss how we could build open ends and get them to work safely round the top edges going round bends. Think how it feels to stand against the side doors - your head has to bend down! Not an easy design. You'll probably have to restrict the width so you end up with about a metre opening, not much more than a doorway and you make it complicated and expensive. So, very little gain and a lot of pain.

[Deep Level]

I'd just like to point out that this thread is not a complaint, just wondered all other trains seemed to be getting built with them ;D.

[Deleted]

I'm glad they don't have walkthrough carriages to be perfectly honest.
The Forced Air Ventilation is grossly inadequate and makes very little difference to the temperature, so the ability to open at least one window per carriage provides small relief from the sweltering heat. Which brings me onto another question, Why have all these clueless designers got rid of the most effective way of cooling trains - Opening windows? Or have I just answered myself?

[Deleted]

The ventilation is much better now Matt, even i'll admit that!

[jardine01]

exactly! Windows are the cheapest way to cool down the train!
The 1938 stock i am sure had windows! I am suprised that apart from D stock no other stocks have windows which open;

[tecchy]

I thought the idea behind not having walk through carriages was that the upgrade significanly increased capacity enough, so the extra cost of installing walk through carriages would of cost more with complications, so what would be the additional space? hardly anything in comparison as to what it used to be. However, I may be wrong and will happy stand corrected!!

The forced air ventilation is great, the trains are a lot cooler than they used to be (67s!) Given the circumstances it works OK.

The problem with opening windows is when you are stationary, no draught is really present so the heat builds up. The emergency ventilation stops that effect and it will take longer for the train to heat up. (it will still heat up but in significantly more time than primitive opening windows)

[causton]

Apr 8, 2012 19:26:02 GMT @tecchy said:

I thought the idea behind not having walk through carriages was that the upgrade significanly increased capacity enough, so the extra cost of installing walk through carriages would of cost more with complications, so what would be the additional space? hardly anything in comparison as to what it used to be. However, I may be wrong and will happy stand corrected!!

The forced air ventilation is great, the trains are a lot cooler than they used to be (67s!) Given the circumstances it works OK.

The problem with opening windows is when you are stationary, no draught is really present so the heat builds up. The emergency ventilation stops that effect and it will take longer for the train to heat up. (it will still heat up but in significantly more time than primitive opening windows)

So the answer is windows that open more as the train goes faster? *sets team of designers on it*

[Deleted]

As well as the windows on the 1938 and the 1959/62 stock there was the ram air ventilators at the front of the train and over the communicating doors.

I did hear about the D stocks were supposed to have more ceiling fans than they were fitted with. I did like the clean look of the D stock without the hopper windows and the saloons were quieter before they were fitted. The ventilation with the extractor fans when they did work and the hopper windows was good. The axial fans at the car ends were not well thought out in my mind.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2012 19:26:02 GMT @tecchy said:

The forced air ventilation is great, the trains are a lot cooler than they used to be (67s!) Given the circumstances it works OK.

The 67s were terrible for having the saloon heating on during hot weather on certain cars. I have also come across this problem on the 72s, but much less prevalent

[tecchy]

Apr 8, 2012 19:29:55 GMT causton said:

Apr 8, 2012 19:26:02 GMT @tecchy said:

I thought the idea behind not having walk through carriages was that the upgrade significanly increased capacity enough, so the extra cost of installing walk through carriages would of cost more with complications, so what would be the additional space? hardly anything in comparison as to what it used to be. However, I may be wrong and will happy stand corrected!!

The forced air ventilation is great, the trains are a lot cooler than they used to be (67s!) Given the circumstances it works OK.

The problem with opening windows is when you are stationary, no draught is really present so the heat builds up. The emergency ventilation stops that effect and it will take longer for the train to heat up. (it will still heat up but in significantly more time than primitive opening windows)

So the answer is windows that open more as the train goes faster? *sets team of designers on it*

The answer on the old stock would have been to use a component that is ridiculously overpowered for the voltage is provides (For lighting and auxiliaries) and actually put fans in!

The newer stock, as technology advances circuits or converters can be tuned to create all sorts of outputs from 630V. They made use of this on the S Stock for example.

Fans have definitely made journeys cooler on the Victoria line, and I agree with putting them on tube trains until we can find a way to put air con on deep level tubes.

Apr 8, 2012 19:40:33 GMT @routemaster said:

The 67s were terrible for having the saloon heating on during hot weather on certain cars. I have also come across this problem on the 72s, but much less prevalent

Solution: Take the fuses out!! ;D

[Ben]

Lol! Yes that would do it! As was discovered decades ago though, the problem then becomes 'heating broken in winter (AKA we lost the fuses sometime around October!! ;P )'

[t697]

Apr 8, 2012 19:40:33 GMT @routemaster said:

The 67s were terrible for having the saloon heating on during hot weather on certain cars. I have also come across this problem on the 72s, but much less prevalent

Wow, that must have been a while ago on 67TS. I was involved in the removal of all the 67TS heater contactors to refurbish for use on 83TS Mk2 in build. By then the 67TS heaters were in poor condition and it was decided the trains didn't really need saloon heaters as they warmed up reasonably by running all the time in tunnel.
I'm fairly sure 09TS doesn't have saloon heaters either, but happy to be corrected...

[revupminster]

I read somewhere to have walkthrough trains on the tube lines would require articulated trains and smaller length carriages and the saving on bogies would not be that great on a ten car articulated train in the space of an eight car train.