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Post by flippyff on May 19, 2012 9:59:12 GMT
ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:158022-2012:TEXT:EN:HTML" <snip> Short description of the contract or purchase(s): Transport for London (TfL) provides passenger services between Gospel Oak and Barking in North East London with a fleet of eight 2 car “Class 172” Diesel Multiple Units (DMU). These passenger services form part of TfL’s London Overground network. TfL is seeking expressions of interest for the following Supplies and/or Services. a) Provision of approximately eight 3-car DMUs suitable for operation on the Gospel Oak -Barking railway, without associated train-maintenance services b) Provision of approximately eight 3-car DMUs suitable for operation on the Gospel Oak -Barking railway, with associated train-maintenance services TfL may consider 4-car DMUs in lieu of 3-car, but does not envisage a fleet of mixed train length. TfL has an aspiration to introduce longer trains from 2013. This notice is for information and to help TfL gauge market interest. Potential applicants are requested to record their interest by following the insrtructions in section VI.2 below. <snip> Date of dispatch of this notice: 16.5.2012 <snip> "
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Post by snoggle on May 19, 2012 10:42:07 GMT
ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTICE:158022-2012:TEXT:EN:HTML" <snip> Short description of the contract or purchase(s): Transport for London (TfL) provides passenger services between Gospel Oak and Barking in North East London with a fleet of eight 2 car “Class 172” Diesel Multiple Units (DMU). These passenger services form part of TfL’s London Overground network. TfL is seeking expressions of interest for the following Supplies and/or Services. a) Provision of approximately eight 3-car DMUs suitable for operation on the Gospel Oak -Barking railway, without associated train-maintenance services b) Provision of approximately eight 3-car DMUs suitable for operation on the Gospel Oak -Barking railway, with associated train-maintenance services TfL may consider 4-car DMUs in lieu of 3-car, but does not envisage a fleet of mixed train length. TfL has an aspiration to introduce longer trains from 2013. This notice is for information and to help TfL gauge market interest. Potential applicants are requested to record their interest by following the insrtructions in section VI.2 below. <snip> Date of dispatch of this notice: 16.5.2012 <snip> " Very interesting but potentially bodes very badly for any prospects of electrification being announced as part of the HLOS statement for Control Period 5. While only a request for information I assume TfL would not be doing this unless they'd had a "hint" about the likely HLOS outcome. |
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Post by crusty54 on May 19, 2012 14:22:05 GMT
Think it reflects the peak loadings are too much for 2 car trains at the moment and something needs to be done sooner rather than later.
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Post by grahamhewett on May 19, 2012 15:42:55 GMT
It's freight that will determine the outcome of this in the end...
GH
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2012 16:04:10 GMT
I'm not entirely sure I understand. Is it to replace the 172s, or in addition to the existing fleet, or is it rather suggesting a centre car for all the 172s?
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Post by snoggle on May 19, 2012 16:33:04 GMT
I'm not entirely sure I understand. Is it to replace the 172s, or in addition to the existing fleet, or is it rather suggesting a centre car for all the 172s? TfL have kept the requirement "loose" so as to offer as much flexibility as possible for respondents to offer / cost different options. If the requirement was "extra carriages to extend Class 172s" it would most likely result in only 2 responses - both from Bombardier (with maintenance and without). Clearly the 172s can be redeployed elsewhere in the UK so a new fleet of 3 or 4 car trains by someone other than Bombardier is not necessarily out of the question. |
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Post by andypurk on May 19, 2012 18:26:10 GMT
I'm not entirely sure I understand. Is it to replace the 172s, or in addition to the existing fleet, or is it rather suggesting a centre car for all the 172s? TfL have kept the requirement "loose" so as to offer as much flexibility as possible for respondents to offer / cost different options. If the requirement was "extra carriages to extend Class 172s" it would most likely result in only 2 responses - both from Bombardier (with maintenance and without). Clearly the 172s can be redeployed elsewhere in the UK so a new fleet of 3 or 4 car trains by someone other than Bombardier is not necessarily out of the question. Of course, Bombardier could put in a bid for extra vehicles to extend the existing class 172 units, which maybe a cheaper option than all new units. After all, they do already have a design for center cars as used in the London Midland units. |
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Post by revupminster on May 19, 2012 19:48:49 GMT
I am sure when these trains were ordered it was with provision for a trailer car and the platforms were only refurbished for three cars.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2012 17:18:58 GMT
It's freight that will determine the outcome of this in the end... GH Shorter signal sections/more signals should have been included when the GOBLIN had LED signals installed, they also need access to upper holloway goods loop on the eastbound. and after recent conversations about freight I dont really want to get started again about it but yes you are correct but if the signals were upgraded then there could be a increase in both passenger and freight traffic on the GOBLIN. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2012 16:04:09 GMT
Justine Greening just confirmed what was obvious from reading the HLOS that the stalemate in respect of electrification of Goblin is to continue.
She replied to a question from Jeremy Corbyn in the HLOS debate a moment ago that Electrification of the line will not be included in HLOS, this despite it being identified by Network rail as a priority in fill scheme in its electrification RUS.
She clearly said that it was the responsibility of TFL, deftly ignoring the significant increasing use of this line by freight that will be an inevitable consequence of the opening of the London Gateway terminal.
The sums are trivial when considering the 500 million for a new connection to heathrow, so find it inexplicable that this farce continues and we could be contemplating no movement on the issue until 2020 at the earliest.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jul 16, 2012 17:48:42 GMT
Well exactly. It is crazy that this short stretch of line does not have OHLE whilst all around it does! Of course these are tough times but money always seems to come from somewhere to fund these projects. Perhaps a team effort can be made?
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slugabed
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Post by slugabed on Jul 16, 2012 18:30:32 GMT
the 500 million for a new connection to Heathrow I've heard a bit about this,but no details....£500m seems a lot for a Western Curve at Airport Jct....is more proposed? Does anyone know WHAT is being proposed,exactly? Genuinely curious. |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Jul 16, 2012 21:54:42 GMT
Think its a bit more than just a western curve; read somewhere it was a line from Slough. Presumably this will plug into the western end of Heathrow T5 station? There was certainly speculation about some Crossrail trains being diverted via Heathrow instead of Iver. If theres one elephant in the room that all these things serve to just highlight, its that no-one in the government has the faintest clue why an area might benefit from real power devolution, and that no-one in Whitehall wants anywhere to have effective control over their own affairs. As long as the civil service's mandate is to grow and maintain its empire, it will, so why is it so suprising that 'local' schemes take a couple of generations to actually get going, if atall. Another group to line up against the wall when the revolution comes?  |
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Post by fleetline on Jul 17, 2012 8:36:04 GMT
Think its a bit more than just a western curve; read somewhere it was a line from Slough. Presumably this will plug into the western end of Heathrow T5 station? There was certainly speculation about some Crossrail trains being diverted via Heathrow instead of Iver. If theres one elephant in the room that all these things serve to just highlight, its that no-one in the government has the faintest clue why an area might benefit from real power devolution, and that no-one in Whitehall wants anywhere to have effective control over their own affairs. As long as the civil service's mandate is to grow and maintain its empire, it will, so why is it so suprising that 'local' schemes take a couple of generations to actually get going, if atall. Another group to line up against the wall when the revolution comes? The line into T5 will part require a tunnel as the whole complex is underground, although the platforms are built already. The announced line is completely new link so it's not just th building but everything else that comes with building new track. Still seems a tad expensive tho. |
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Post by revupminster on Jul 17, 2012 10:06:25 GMT
This lack of electrification of the line, Is it anything to do with weight restrictions on the viaducts and bridges? I don't think I have seen a freight train on the line even though there is capacity for them and the signalling is controlled from Upminster I believe.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2012 10:23:20 GMT
This lack of electrification of the line, Is it anything to do with weight restrictions on the viaducts and bridges? I don't think I have seen a freight train on the line even though there is capacity for them and the signalling is controlled from Upminster I believe. Freight trains go via the GOBLIN regularly |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 17, 2012 11:22:19 GMT
This lack of electrification of the line, Is it anything to do with weight restrictions on the viaducts and bridges? I don't think I have seen a freight train on the line even though there is capacity for them and the signalling is controlled from Upminster I believe. Loads of freight goes via the GOBLIN. I saw a Tesco train last week and snapped a LaFarge cement train going through Blackhorse Road. The trains usually run in a path a couple of minutes behind a passenger train. During the Games a lot of the freight that normally goes via the NLL will go via the GOBLIN instead as the NLL has an enhanced Overground service. |
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Post by grahamhewett on Jul 17, 2012 12:04:41 GMT
GOBLIN is in fact the preferred route for freight leaving the various Thamesside yards etc. 2 paths an hour for this. I suspect the lack of progress on electrification is the result of a game of bluff between TfL, DfT and the freight operators as to who should pay for it. He who blinks first pays. Meanwhile, the rest of us lose...
Graham H
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Post by snoggle on Jul 17, 2012 16:45:27 GMT
GOBLIN is in fact the preferred route for freight leaving the various Thamesside yards etc. 2 paths an hour for this. I suspect the lack of progress on electrification is the result of a game of bluff between TfL, DfT and the freight operators as to who should pay for it. He who blinks first pays. Meanwhile, the rest of us lose... Graham H According to a posting yesterday from my local GLA member the DfT have said any electrification is for TfL to do and pay for. TfL apparently say the rules have changed during the HLOS process and were not expecting this. In other words a continuation of years and years of argument, confusion and no progress. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2012 17:47:34 GMT
This lack of electrification of the line, Is it anything to do with weight restrictions on the viaducts and bridges? I don't think I have seen a freight train on the line even though there is capacity for them and the signalling is controlled from Upminster I believe. Loads of freight goes via the GOBLIN. I saw a Tesco train last week and snapped a LaFarge cement train going through Blackhorse Road. The trains usually run in a path a couple of minutes behind a passenger train. During the Games a lot of the freight that normally goes via the NLL will go via the GOBLIN instead as the NLL has an enhanced Overground service. Your last comment is not true, from 26th july all freight running through stratford will be running in a special 'path' however it will continue to run along the NLL. And also as of 30th july there is a restriction on night freight along the NLL which is the only olympic frieght restriction. The Overground service will be a 5/6 minute service throughout the day, I would expect some delays on the NLL over the next few weeks due to slow moving freight trains as the line can cope with a 3 minute headway between freight and passenger, but its not a nice journey. |
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Post by snoggle on Jul 18, 2012 9:49:34 GMT
Loads of freight goes via the GOBLIN. I saw a Tesco train last week and snapped a LaFarge cement train going through Blackhorse Road. The trains usually run in a path a couple of minutes behind a passenger train. During the Games a lot of the freight that normally goes via the NLL will go via the GOBLIN instead as the NLL has an enhanced Overground service. Your last comment is not true, from 26th july all freight running through stratford will be running in a special 'path' however it will continue to run along the NLL. And also as of 30th july there is a restriction on night freight along the NLL which is the only olympic frieght restriction. The Overground service will be a 5/6 minute service throughout the day, I would expect some delays on the NLL over the next few weeks due to slow moving freight trains as the line can cope with a 3 minute headway between freight and passenger, but its not a nice journey. My comment was made in good faith based on what I had read over recent weeks and months. There is no need to write in such a way that it makes it appear I was telling lies. You could have said I was incorrect rather than "not true". |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2012 16:34:43 GMT
Your last comment is not true, from 26th july all freight running through stratford will be running in a special 'path' however it will continue to run along the NLL. And also as of 30th july there is a restriction on night freight along the NLL which is the only olympic frieght restriction. The Overground service will be a 5/6 minute service throughout the day, I would expect some delays on the NLL over the next few weeks due to slow moving freight trains as the line can cope with a 3 minute headway between freight and passenger, but its not a nice journey. My comment was made in good faith based on what I had read over recent weeks and months. There is no need to write in such a way that it makes it appear I was telling lies. You could have said I was incorrect rather than "not true". I Just wanted to tell people that they should not waste there time on the GOBLIN freight spotting as there will be no additional freight, I stand by my comments but understand that they are strongly worded. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 22:49:03 GMT
I'm sure that 3 or 4 car class 117 dmu's worked this service years ago. Seems crazy that only 2-car units were ordered for this service in the first place!!. In the current peaks, even a 3-car 172 is packed!!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 28, 2012 6:31:45 GMT
I'm sure that 3 or 4 car class 117 dmu's worked this service years ago. Not sure when 117s would have worked that route. I'm fairly sure that 116s, and later 127s, were the usual fare - indeed in four car formations |
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Post by mcmaddog on Nov 28, 2012 8:39:57 GMT
I'm sure that 3 or 4 car class 117 dmu's worked this service years ago. Seems crazy that only 2-car units were ordered for this service in the first place!!. In the current peaks, even a 3-car 172 is packed!! Although aren't the new trains 23m long? Not exactly like for like in terms of numbers of cars. |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 28, 2012 9:23:10 GMT
I'm sure that 3 or 4 car class 117 dmu's worked this service years ago. Seems crazy that only 2-car units were ordered for this service in the first place!!. In the current peaks, even a 3-car 172 is packed!! I am not aware that any 3 car 172s are owned by LOROL so how can one be packed on the GOBLIN? |
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 28, 2012 10:12:03 GMT
The current trains are 2 car and they are leaving people behind at some stations during peak hours.
This is why TfL are seeking 3 or 4 car units to replace them.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 28, 2012 12:48:28 GMT
The High Density 1st Gen DMUs were 64' per carriage. So a four car set would be 78m, whereas a two car set of the 172s is 46m long; a three car 69m and a four car 92m
Course platforms have been cut back (or left fallow!) since then.
I could be wrong here, but I thought in their latter days, NSE put on whatever consist they could cobble together of working 1st gen stock?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2012 13:36:57 GMT
I'm sure that 3 or 4 car class 117 dmu's worked this service years ago. Not sure when 117s would have worked that route. I'm fairly sure that 116s, and later 127s, were the usual fare - indeed in four car formations Class 117's 2 car sets were used in the early 1990's XF |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2012 2:11:45 GMT
The last three car trains were class 116s when the service was routed Kentish Town to Barking. That service finished in the early 1980s. Three cars to Gospel oak were rare. When the 116s went it was a mixture of class 104s,117s,121s (often in single mode) & 127s. When Silverlink came about slam door stock was eventually removed and replaced by class 150 sprinters (although the company were looking at using some early style pacers that had just been withdrawn!). You also have to remember that services levels were at best half hourly and often on Sundays and late evenings only hourly.
Hindsight is also a wonderful thing when LOROL took over the service i dont think even they saw how busy it was going to get. They purchased two car units probably based on previous passenger levels and added a little more space. However no could forsee a very large increase especially in peak periods where a three car train could even struggle. This being with the current service levels operating at its maximum of a 15 minute headway. taking into consideration sigmalling and freight traffic,
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