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Post by melikepie on Sept 18, 2012 9:19:35 GMT
One thing I don't get. Let's pretend I'm new to the London Transport system and I begin my journey in December without a smart phone. I'm beginning from either Canonbury or Highbury. How would I be able to tell the quickest route to Clapham Junction if there are two, one on each line, departing at roughly the same time?
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Post by Deep Level on Sept 18, 2012 9:52:06 GMT
I still don't know why they didn't stick to the original plan of extending New Cross Trains to run H&I - New Cross and terminate CJ Trains at Dalston Junction? Made so much more sense and was much simpler, I'm not sure why they think running trains H&I - CJ would be more beneficial?
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Post by mcmaddog on Sept 18, 2012 11:04:49 GMT
One thing I don't get. Let's pretend I'm new to the London Transport system and I begin my journey in December without a smart phone. I'm beginning from either Canonbury or Highbury. How would I be able to tell the quickest route to Clapham Junction if there are two, one on each line, departing at roughly the same time? Isn't that just the same as a person arriving at Euston wanting Watford Jn, a person arriving at Paddington wanting Reading? Most folks would count the stops and get on the one with fewer. |
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Post by Deep Level on Sept 18, 2012 11:31:31 GMT
Not really sure how your examples are comparable.
You're referring to slow and fast services whereas melikepie is referring to getting from one destination to another on the opposite side of London going via 2 completely different ways round London.
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Post by snoggle on Sept 18, 2012 12:04:11 GMT
One thing I don't get. Let's pretend I'm new to the London Transport system and I begin my journey in December without a smart phone. I'm beginning from either Canonbury or Highbury. How would I be able to tell the quickest route to Clapham Junction if there are two, one on each line, departing at roughly the same time? As things currently stand you wouldn't know. What we don't yet know is whether TfL are going to provide some supplementary information to passengers detailing journey times. There are, of course, other factors to take into account such as relative frequencies - at off peak times the direct Highbury - CJ service via WJ is only every 30 mins. To catch the connecting service at WJ you have an interchange time penalty. Taking the ELL route is more expensive but less crowded from H&I and Canonbury than via the other route. Passengers will place different values on the time, cost and crowding trade offs. I'm more concerned as to how TfL are going to sort out the fare issue and whether a route validator will be provided at CJ to open up more non Z1 charging routes than currently exist. There is a logic in TfL signage whereby the station line diagram signs generally show the fastest route to a destination where you can travel from either platform - Circle line diagrams in the central area split in this way. I don't know if Overground signage will work in the same way in respect of the NLL / WLL & ELL choices. As I assume people will travel across Clapham Junction to reach SLL destinations the "which way is fastest" question arises right across the Overground network where people will be able to travel via CJ or Highbury to reach places like Peckham Rye or Denmark Hill. Signage should really give a clue as to which way is best. I dare say we shall see in a couple of months as to whether this issue is addressed or not. |
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Post by Deep Level on Sept 18, 2012 12:16:27 GMT
How can going via the ELL be more expensive? You can only be charged one price for going between 2 stations, the system has no idea what route you took to get there.
This is why Pink Oyster Readers and "Z1 only" Routes were introduced, which leads to another question: When the new services starts will this route become a "Z1 Only" Route? As people would be unable to prove that they're travelling via the NLL
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Post by snoggle on Sept 18, 2012 12:44:07 GMT
How can going via the ELL be more expensive? You can only be charged one price for going between 2 stations, the system has no idea what route you took to get there. This is precisely the problem. At present I can travel via the NLL / WLL and touch a pink validator at Highbury or Gospel Oak and I do not charged for Zone 1. However that is by virtue of where I start from and having to change lines. If I lived at Canonbury and was happy to go round on the NLL / WLL to avoid Zone 1 why should I be charged a higher fare from December? It is quite simply unfair relative to the fare situation that currently applies. If TfL do increase the fare to Clapham Junction then passengers will likely face two increases in less than a month given fares will almost certainly go up in Jan 2013. Yes which is why I have raised the issue. There are further problems that exist today such as being unable to use certain routes such as via Clapham Junction to reach Wimbledon without being charged for Zone 1. You are forced to change at West Brompton which may not be the best route. Similarly fares to SWT stations on the Windsor Line from Overground stns are charged via Zone 1. In some instances non Z1 fares do not even exist. I have a Z23 Travelcard and avoid Zone 1 on many journeys by using the Overground. In order to avoid Z1 charges I have to exit and re-enter at Clapham Junction despite my entire journey being within the validity of my ticket. While I accept TfL want to stop people "doing a doughnut" and dodging the Zone 1 fare the least they could do would be to create the fares and validation infrastructure to allow people to accurately record their routes and be charged appropriately or avoid having their PAYG purse raided when they use their ticket correctly. Why create an orbital railway and then charge people as if it does not exist? That is the bit that is objectionable. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 18, 2012 13:15:50 GMT
Now that times appear on the NR journey planner it is apparent that it will make little difference: the journey times from H&I are the same, with the ELL train arriving and departing CJ marginally earlier than the NLL. And they do run at roghly the same time - outbound, the trains pass between H&I and Canonbury, so at H&I it should be quickest to take the first train, but at Canonbury it should be quickest to take the ELL train.
There are several places on LU where you have a choice of route from opposite platforms for the same destination - for example
on the Uxbridge branch if you want to go to Kings Cross,
at Mile End for Ealing Broadway,
at Baker Street if you want Waterloo,
at Finsbury park if you want Kings Cross or Green Park,
at Aldgate East if you want Hammersmith (17 stops by either route)
at Camden Town if you want Kennington or points south (ten stops each way).
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rincew1nd
Administrator
Junior Under-wizzard of quiz
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 18, 2012 13:22:09 GMT
What's the running time like for those examples? I don't think I'd ever think of doing Uxbridge to Kings Cross by Picadilly as it just seems to go the long way around, same thing for Mile End to Ealing Broadway too.
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Post by peterc on Sept 18, 2012 15:00:45 GMT
In some of those examples it isn't really an issue:
Uxbridge branch - same platforms at intermediate stations to Rayners Lane
Mile End - cross platform interchange - whichever is first
Aldgate East - same platform
Baker Street to Waterloo was a trip that I used to have to make. Bakerloo was a "no brainer" after the first time you try and fight your way off against the crowds getting on for Canary Warf.
I would add Harrow on the Hill where it can take some fine judgement to decide if waiting for a Chiltern from platform 1 or taking a Met from platform 3 is the best option. (I ususally ended up waiting at a signal for the Chiltern to go ahead of us, but at least I had a seat)
There would be a time penalty but I assume that taking a Richmond train and changing at WJ would avoid a zone1 fare by using a validator.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Sept 18, 2012 17:21:28 GMT
In some of those examples it isn't really an issue: Uxbridge branch - same platforms at intermediate stations to Rayners Lane Mile End - cross platform interchange - whichever is first Aldgate East - same platform Baker Street to Waterloo was a trip that I used to have to make. Bakerloo was a "no brainer" after the first time you try and fight your way off against the crowds getting on for Canary Warf. So do you get the first train, or wait for one specific route? I think the answer on the Uxbridge branch or at Mile End (wait for the train making fewer stops) is fairly obvious because one route is so much longer than the other, but what does the non-expert do at Aldgate East - on the line diagram it's only one stop less to Hammersmith via Victoria compared with via Kings Cross - and until Wood Lane opened they were equal!) Or at Stratford, going to Bond Street - Jubilee is one stop fewer, but a lot further, than the Central: which way would you go? And following the "fewer stops" rule at Baker Street would send you left to the Jubilee (4 stops to Waterloo) rather than right to the Bakerloo (6 stops) - which is he opposite of what you said you would do - so is it such a no brainer for those unfamilar with the system? |
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Post by chrisvandenkieboom on Sept 18, 2012 17:51:23 GMT
Is there actually any good reason why Shoreditch High Street is in Z1?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 18:34:02 GMT
Is there actually any good reason why Shoreditch High Street is in Z1? To rip people off? The old Shoreditch was Zone 2, right? |
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Post by metrailway on Sept 18, 2012 19:03:02 GMT
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Post by snoggle on Sept 19, 2012 9:22:14 GMT
Looking at the article I note a comment about "the line needing a robust funding package". I thought that the Zone 1 decision was linked to the funding package for ELL Phase 2 (i.e. over the SLL) rather than for Phase 1 (linking the ELL with the National Rail network). Boris had a difficult time agreeing the go ahead for ELL Phase 2 with the DfT with byzantine funding and operating restrictions (e.g. no LOROL trains to ever reach Victoria and the loss of any SLL into Victoria). I would be somewhat surprised if TfL (under Ken L) had agreed to a package that increased fares given several decisions were taken to reduce fares on the Overground network once TfL took over responsibility for it. |
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