ELL Time Keeping

[Deleted]

I have now travelled on the 0729 ex-Peckham Rye to Canada Water on 12 occasions since the extension opened. This is my first experience of the ELL and all 12 journeys so far have been late:

Leaving PMR: All between 2 and 3 minutes late
Arriving ZCW: All between 2 and 5 minutes late

All except one journey suffered a signal stop at Silwood Jn. As far as I can establish, the public times are the same as the WTT times.

Is there a particular reason for the less than sparkling performance of this train or is late running just a fact of life on the ELL?

[redbond]

At Peckham Rye we are usually held up in both directions waiting for a late running Southern service. Also drivers are still continuing to "take it easy" as we get used to it.

It doesn't help that instead of starting from scratch with the timetable, services from Clapham are in effect just slotted in to existing ELL trains. If one is held up south of New Cross Gate, it will have a worse effect as you get up to Silwood Junction.

The ARS is a pain, if you're coming from Canal Junction, we get a single yellow and have to crawl around to Silwood until we can see that it has already set the junction and cleared, causing more of a delay and having a knock-on effect.

[North End]

Jan 2, 2013 8:32:33 GMT @dy444 said:

I have now travelled on the 0729 ex-Peckham Rye to Canada Water on 12 occasions since the extension opened. This is my first experience of the ELL and all 12 journeys so far have been late:

Leaving PMR: All between 2 and 3 minutes late
Arriving ZCW: All between 2 and 5 minutes late

All except one journey suffered a signal stop at Silwood Jn. As far as I can establish, the public times are the same as the WTT times.

Is there a particular reason for the less than sparkling performance of this train or is late running just a fact of life on the ELL?

On every occasion I've travelled on the new section, the train has (after leaving Clapham Junction on time) been held for several minutes at Silwood Junction, and then run late up to Highbury & Islington.

This is what happens when you run services from several routes into a core section of line, and is why the Thameslink Programme will have disastrous effects on timekeeping across several railways!

[Deleted]

I was on time in both directions today, even though I was delayed for a couple of mins at Peckham Rye and for a further min just just before Denmark Hill. I have to say however there was a fair amount of 'slack' time built in and boarding times are reduced with few trains being full to capacity as quite a few people are still not back to work after the Xmas/New Year break.

A delay is a delay and yes there are issues with four different services all merging onto the core ELL as there really is very little leeway there and the knock-on effect can be quite profound. Drivers are very conscious that they are facing a lot more reds and single yellows and are right to be cautious. I think as drivers become accustomed to how the patterns work (when running smoothly at least) then passengers will become less conscious of stops other than at stations (and station dwell times are likely to be reduced too). For example today when I left Queen's Rd Peckham I knew that I had 5 mins to reach Surrey Quays but that if I went at linespeed I would have to wait at Silwood to allow a preceding service through. I just reduced my speed once over Old Kent Rd Jnc (so as not to hold up other services) and by the time I was approaching Silwood Junction the red came off. In a funny kind of way it is as if the schedule allows for a stop at Canal Road (the opening of that station in the future might help regulate the journey). In other words in normal running I think passengers will have less perception of 'stop/start' running between stations as time goes by. Almost certainly however it will be much harder to achieve the kind of punctuality LOROL previously experienced with 25% more services through the core. The West Croydon's follow the Clapham's very closely through the core and there are now many sections of the line where we can see trains ahead of us. It requires a lot more concentration from drivers, but inevitably there will be delays - a passenger obstructing the doors on one service will be immediately delaying the following service, whereas that might not necessarily have been the case before.

As Redbond says, we can often be delayed by Southern services that make us miss our slot onto the core (whether from W Croydon, Crystal Palace or Clapham Jnc), but the SLL has more junctions where we might be affected by other services (not just Southern!). I was significantly delayed at 11.30pm one night by a freight train sitting in Denmark Hill and I knew it was going to take quite a while to get up the hill and out of the way.

I honestly think that things will get better as drivers (and signallers) build experience. Things need to 'bed in' but I think that the consequences when delays do occur will be more pronounced as the concertina effect comes into play.

[Deleted]

One thing I have just noticed about the train I mentioned (the 0729 ex PMR which is 0714 ex CLJ) is that for some strange reason it is the only train of day with a booked departure time from Wandsworth Rd (0719) which is 5 minutes later than its booked departure time from Clapham Jn. For every other train it is 6 minutes. All remaining inter-station timings to PMR are the same as for other services. It is thus booked to be the quickest train of the day (by one minute) between CLJ and PMR.

If, as appears to be the case, that timing cannot be kept and we allow another minute as a factor for the drivers getting used to things/wet rails etc then that explains the consistent 2 min late starts from PMR on that train.

[rincew1nd]

Jan 2, 2013 8:32:33 GMT @dy444 said:

Leaving PMR: All between 2 and 3 minutes late
Arriving ZCW: All between 2 and 5 minutes late

Ahhh, but with PPM the train is only late if its five minutes late, thus all of your trains leaving PMR are 'on time'.

[Deleted]

I think 5 mins is far too much slack really, should be 2 or 3 mins.

[Deleted]

Jan 3, 2013 8:27:40 GMT rincew1nd said:

Ahhh, but with PPM the train is only late if its five minutes late, thus all of your trains leaving PMR are 'on time'.

Ah yes but I'm old fashioned - in my book late is late

[Deleted]

I take it all back. It was on time today.

Well done to all concerned and I look forward to more of the same.

[redbond]

I was shocked driving yesterday, every single train through every single route that I drove was on time with no delays caused by late running Southerns.

[Deleted]

I have been held up at Peckham Rye a few times but hand on heart I have been on time at terminus stations the past 5 times I have driven the Clapham's (up and down). I was even able to pause for an extra 15 seconds at Canada Water in peak rush this morning! These days that station on the up is tricky because there is nearly always a preceding service in Rotherhithe and with no sig inbetween, CW is so often on danger it's a crawling approach.

Maybe I've been lucky of late and I have to admit the first couple of weeks were poor. Time will tell as passenger numbers increase from Mon. There's not much we can do if a Southern slows our path, but I sense that drivers and signallers are upping their game (we want to be on time!). Passengers on the route will probably always feel certain sections are a bit slow but there is not much that can be done with with so many different services crossing paths. I had to dwell at Denmark Hill for 4 mins today but a quick PA explaining that goes a long way and ultimately I was keeping to timetable. Passengers will need to decide a) if it is the quickest route compared to alternatives (even if it 'feels' slow at times), and b) if it is reliable enough. Only time will tell. There is no question that the core is more challenging for drivers but in spite of the challenges I honestly think we can achieve a level of performance acceptable to most, if not quite reach our hitherto excellent punctuality stats (only bettered by C2C who have a very much simpler task - without doing them down).

[Deleted]

Oh and by (lucky?) coincidence I was the driver of the 07.14 from CLJ today (Friday)! I can't see how you can get to Wandsworth Rd in 5 mins without taking full line speed (25mph) on approach to the first signal on the Ludgate up - not advised as it should be assumed it is on red and it has restricted view. 5 and a half is possible (but as timings don't go to half minutes 5 or 6 is a fair represenation). Either way the time can be made up within speed restrictions by Denmark Hill provided there are no other factors causing delay.

[Deleted]

How about this for good time keeping, 9N35 was 2 early on departure from wandsworth road this afternoon.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L21565/2013/01/05/advanced

Remember the link will not work for ever

[Deleted]

No doubt the driver will be asked to explain. There can be a significant dwell time at Denmark Hill. That should be known, but it's early days. Sometimes when you've been running against time if you fail to glance at the diagram because you think you are down (or on time) it is possible to be caught out. It's not great for the driver to have had this brought to attention here to be honest.

[mcmaddog]

Jan 5, 2013 17:54:20 GMT @omnicitylondon said:

How about this for good time keeping, 9N35 was 2 early on departure from wandsworth road this afternoon.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L21565/2013/01/05/advanced

Remember the link will not work for ever

Interestingly enough (or not) it says it was a Class 375 which is surprising considering LO only have one class of electric train

[Fahad]

That's just the rolling stock class that the train was pathed for - if all classes in a family of train have the same acceleration/braking characteristics, then Network Rail treat them all as the same for timetabling purposes

Jan 2, 2013 8:32:33 GMT @dy444 said:

I have now travelled on the 0729 ex-Peckham Rye to Canada Water on 12 occasions since the extension opened. This is my first experience of the ELL and all 12 journeys so far have been late:

Leaving PMR: All between 2 and 3 minutes late
Arriving ZCW: All between 2 and 5 minutes late

All except one journey suffered a signal stop at Silwood Jn. As far as I can establish, the public times are the same as the WTT times.

Is there a particular reason for the less than sparkling performance of this train or is late running just a fact of life on the ELL?

This train was on time at Canada Water both on Thursday and yesterday, Friday

[Deleted]

That site lists LM services out of Euston as Class 506...

I dont think 506's match the performance of a 350 somehow

[Fahad]

Most LM services out of Euston are timed for a Class 350 EMU - see this one for example. Those that run at 110mph, a small minority at present, are timed for what is purportedly a Class 506 EMU. I suspect what has happened is that the number has been reused, as no 506s are still in a state fit to run on the network, and they didn't want to up the speed of all 350s in the computer

[norbitonflyer]

I wondred if it could be an abbreviation for 350/6 but the 110mph versions are to be classified 350/3 and 350/4 so it's not that simple.

A 506 would have more problems running on the WCML than just keeping to time - as 1.5kV dc units their traction equipment would be fried as soon as the pantograph touched the (25kV ac) overhead.

[mcmaddog]

Jan 5, 2013 23:33:05 GMT Fahad said:

That's just the rolling stock class that the train was pathed for - if all classes in a family of train have the same acceleration/braking characteristics, then Network Rail treat them all as the same for timetabling

I'm surprised at that. I'd always assued that the 75mph top speed meant they were geared for faster acceleration.

[Fahad]

That shouldn't preclude them from being used on a diagram timed for class 375s, as they will be able to keep up. It should, however, prevent the timetable from being tightened to take advantage of the faster acceleration, until Network Rail stop considering all Electrostars to have equal traction characteristics

EDIT: I've had a look at the actual Working Timetable, and found that the data is formatted differently to how it is in the CIF schedules used by all the train timetable websites. For London Midland services, the timing loads "350" and "350-110" both appear, although curiously neither is mentioned in the Explanation of References
The timetables for London Overground routes use the timing loads "378" for a 378, and "150" for a 172

I shall now go and investigate why the timing loads in CIF show none of this detail

[mrfs42]

Jan 6, 2013 17:18:40 GMT Fahad said:

EDIT: I've had a look at the actual Working Timetable

Have you got a for that, please?

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2013 18:10:08 GMT mrfs42 said:

Jan 6, 2013 17:18:40 GMT Fahad said:

EDIT: I've had a look at the actual Working Timetable

Have you got a for that, please?

This is the whole of the NR WTT: www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.aspx?root=\Timetables\Working%20Timetable%20(WTT)&dir=%5cTimetables%5cWorking%20Timetable%20(WTT)%5cDecember%202012%20-%20May%202013. This is the index.

[Fahad]

You might also like this amazing website, for browsing Network Rail timetables. It includes all short-term revisions and cancellations, and even has real-time signalling maps for some routes!

This website will also show whether or not trains keep to these times. It will also interpolate the times at intermediate locations, even those that aren't timing points(!), before arrival, and show the actual time (from Train Describer data) after arrival.

[mrfs42]

Thank-you very much gentlemen. As we live above Harbledown Junction (as was) the open train times site will be quite useful.

[stevo]

Jan 6, 2013 20:43:14 GMT mrfs42 said:

Thank-you very much gentlemen. As we live above Harbledown Junction (as was) the open train times site will be quite useful.

Isn't that near Thanington Without? I love unusual place names

[mrfs42]

Jan 6, 2013 21:14:51 GMT stevo said:

Jan 6, 2013 20:43:14 GMT mrfs42 said:

Thank-you very much gentlemen. As we live above Harbledown Junction (as was) the open train times site will be quite useful.

Isn't that near Thanington Without? I love unusual place names

Yes - because it is without the city walls of Canterbury.

[stevo]

Thank you, sir. I had always assumed that the use of the word "without" to mean "outside of" was an ancient (defunct) usage of the word, but the dictionary has indicated that my assumption was incorrect.
Sorry for the thread drift.

[Deleted]

Jan 6, 2013 12:32:04 GMT mcmaddog said:

Jan 5, 2013 23:33:05 GMT Fahad said:

That's just the rolling stock class that the train was pathed for - if all classes in a family of train have the same acceleration/braking characteristics, then Network Rail treat them all as the same for timetabling

I'm surprised at that. I'd always assued that the 75mph top speed meant they were geared for faster acceleration.

Usually the case but a class 455 (75 mph) is no match for a class 377 (100mph)