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Post by melikepie on Jul 6, 2014 13:45:33 GMT
I was surprised at Cockfosters the other day, they played an automatic announcement about separating oyster and contactless to avoid "card clash" which I suppose means paying twice. Or has this been going on a while?
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Post by domh245 on Jul 6, 2014 13:56:29 GMT
thats been going on for a while now - I've heard it most days coming home now at fulham broadway
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 14:06:32 GMT
Yeah we even get it in Roding Valley. I think as you pretty much said the point is there's a small chance that the reader might recognise both cards and charge you on both cards so you pay twice.
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Post by domh245 on Jul 6, 2014 14:10:28 GMT
Although, whilst you might suspect that card clash would mean paying twice, the official advice from TfL (and personal experience) is that the machine should have a hissy fit and reject both cards. Occasionally it may read both, but 99% of the time it should reject both, so really it is just about avoiding causing a queue (and making a scene of yourself!)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2014 14:37:18 GMT
Yes, I'd heard that the actual likelihood of being double-charged is quite low and you could probably get a refund anyway, but I think they're just covering themselves. Besides there's nothing TfL like more than sending out an irritating announcement, in lieu of something helpful. Mind you, I often find than when there's service disruption and I'm waiting for a train - don't know when it's going to arrive - my mind tends to wander and I find myself thinking: 'Should I keep my oyster card and contactless payment card together? It'd really help me organise my various cards and reduce the number of holders and wallets and stuff...' So, y'know, whilst I may be cynical, it is always useful to hear that timely reminder, telling me I should keep them separate. I forget, you see, I need to be told something four or five times every day  |
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Post by Alight on Jul 6, 2014 14:46:39 GMT
RE: announcements, there is a standard script that duty supervisors/managers are to follow in recording the message at their station whether it be Cockfosters or Roding Valley.
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Post by Tomcakes on Jul 6, 2014 17:44:43 GMT
I seem to remember that announcements are now done locally to sound more, well, local and personal, rather than a scripted corporate voice. (Am I right?) However they often sound A) bored and obviously script reading or B) unintelligible owing to mumbling or poor clarity of speech. I also question how useful such an announcement is continually, however the TfL edict seems to be that any quiet time is ample space for another announcements.
Harking back to the 1972 "Regulations Concerning The Working Of Stations", one of the clauses reads (paraphrased) "Announcements must not be continuous, to avoid irritating passengers. They must not be made when a train is arriving or leaving, as this will interfere with the quality of the broadcast". If only today's management read that!
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Post by Dmitri on Jul 6, 2014 19:13:30 GMT
"Announcements must not be continuous, to avoid irritating passengers. They must not be made when a train is arriving or leaving, as this will interfere with the quality of the broadcast" Quite sensible idea  . |
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Post by Alight on Jul 6, 2014 21:13:44 GMT
Hear, hear! I seem to remember that announcements are now done locally to sound more, well, local and personal, rather than a scripted corporate voice. (Am I right?) However they often sound A) bored and obviously script reading or B) unintelligible owing to mumbling or poor clarity of speech. I also question how useful such an announcement is continually, however the TfL edict seems to be that any quiet time is ample space for another announcements. You're absolutely right. I think it is also a cost-saving measure to obviate the need to re-hire professional voice-over artists but as you point out, the resultant quality isn't all that. In most cases they do sound bored - agreed. It's quite contradictory really as T/Ops on here have often alluded to the target-driven culture of scoring extra points for making manual announcements over the PA, whereas the management have emphasised on several public events (e.g. S Stock mock-up) that their objective is to have as many digital voice announcements as possible (and hence complimentary on-screen messages) so as to keep the manual PAs to the bare minimum. |
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Post by Tomcakes on Jul 6, 2014 22:35:37 GMT
I'm not sure which is worse - a computer apologising for the inconvenience, or a bored driver apologising for the inconvenience whilst mentally filling in his overtime form!
I presume that good enunciation and clarity of speech is a selection criteria for staff who may be expected to make announcements, although I equally assume that there are some who shy away from doing it whilst others are more willing.
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Post by Chris M on Jul 6, 2014 23:55:41 GMT
Although, whilst you might suspect that card clash would mean paying twice, the official advice from TfL (and personal experience) is that the machine should have a hissy fit and reject both cards. Occasionally it may read both, but 99% of the time it should reject both, so really it is just about avoiding causing a queue (and making a scene of yourself!) The other possibility is that it only sees one of the cards and so charges that one, but sees only the other one when you exit resulting in two incomplete journeys. On the topic of voice quality there are a couple of platform staff at Bank who have better quality diction and clarity than some voiceover artists. One in particular would make a fabulous compère. The same cannot be said of anyone I've heard at Debden. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 0:24:41 GMT
What really annoys me is at Woodford the announcement used to go something like "for more information, see posters, speak to a member of staff, or visit the TfL website." Except that the end of that sentence has simply been amputated and it now goes "for more information, see posters, speak to a member of staff." The intonation is all wrong and the whole announcement falls off the end of a cliff. And people say I'm picky...  On a serious note, I really am starting to think that if you're going to have pre-recorded announcements at all, you really need to make them sound natural, otherwise they just grate. Waste of time. I know it's more about man hours than storage capacity, but there's really no real limit to the number of announcements you could record. Now, there is a limit to what is a good use of time, but don't just chop the end off my announcement, record me another one! No, I'm only in my twenties, honestly! Fifty-three? Grumpy old man? No, not quite yet |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 1:03:28 GMT
I presume that good enunciation and clarity of speech is a selection criteria for staff who may be expected to make announcements Certainly not the case on quite a few local stations (North West London) - also quite a few announcers here have thick foreign accent to the point of being difficult to understand. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Jul 7, 2014 6:11:02 GMT
I presume that good enunciation and clarity of speech is a selection criteria for staff who may be expected to make announcements, although I equally assume that there are some who shy away from doing it whilst others are more willing. Sadly this no longer seems to be a consideration as there are several "Line Information Specialists" who broadcast via Connect radio to trains and stations (on the District no longer direct to platforms) who would fail the criteria if I was on the selection panel. |
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Post by sawb on Jul 7, 2014 11:50:36 GMT
Yes, getting to the point where I can memorise and and join in with the "card clash" announcement. Was at Stratford one evening last week for a total period of 17 minutes (due to delays) and the "card clash" announcement was played no fewer than 11 times! I'm hoping that's either a broken timer somewhere on the automatic announcement!
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Post by norbitonflyer on Jul 7, 2014 13:04:26 GMT
t their objective is to have as many digital voice announcements as possible (and hence complimentary on-screen messages) so as to keep the manual PAs to the bare minimum. Do you mean "as many as possible"? Are we to be subjected to a continupous stream of the things? Or did you mean that as manyas possible of the announcements that have to be made are digital ? I like the idea of complimentary on screen messages - "What a well-dressed lot of passsengers we have on board today!" but I suspect you meant complementary (adding something to the announcements), and what they usually are is simple duplicates of the announcements (so that people who can't hear well can still get the message). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 13:16:30 GMT
I don't think there's going to be much call for the well-dressed passengers message... Also, people might take it the wrong way and think you're taking the Michael |
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Post by rincew1nd on Jul 7, 2014 15:50:42 GMT
I'll have you know that both Michaels I know on this forum are both very well-dressed gentlemen!
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Post by gantshill on Jul 7, 2014 17:49:59 GMT
I shall take that as a complement. And greetings to t'other Michael too.
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Post by rincew1nd on Sept 15, 2014 18:52:52 GMT
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 15, 2014 20:49:49 GMT
Well now, I love this bit of the BBC News item: Commuters have been urged to avoid paying twice in "card clash" by making sure only one card touches the reader.Rather inspires confidence in the system, that does. Still, item 3 on the national news headlines on the right hand side is better reading: "Goldfish has brain op".(and it was successful, folks!) So, there's now at least some chance of someone somewhere in authority understanding that mixing the two systems is the cause of card clash, not the PBI of Tube travel-the commuters . |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 11:06:51 GMT
Harking back to the 1972 "Regulations Concerning The Working Of Stations", one of the clauses reads (paraphrased) "Announcements must ... not be made when a train is arriving or leaving, as this will interfere with the quality of the broadcast". If only today's management read that! Not long ago I was on a tube train stopped at a station hearing three simultaneous messages: one from the driver; one from the pre-recorded "This station is..." on the train; and another from the platform public address system. Needless to say, all three were completely wasted as none was intelligible. |
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Post by peterc on Sept 19, 2014 12:23:04 GMT
Waitrose seem to manage to use contactless readers at their checkouts without making a song and dance about "card clash".
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 19, 2014 13:52:00 GMT
So do Tescos.
So presumably the technology is now tested in the field already.
If TfL has a problem, is it because Oyster is a specific system in its' own right, and not a generic card system ie debit/credit etc. within which the supermarket's software has to recognize a number of different types of card and a whole lot more card issuers??
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Post by snoggle on Sept 19, 2014 18:09:21 GMT
So do Tescos.
So presumably the technology is now tested in the field already.
If TfL has a problem, is it because Oyster is a specific system in its' own right, and not a generic card system ie debit/credit etc. within which the supermarket's software has to recognize a number of different types of card and a whole lot more card issuers?? The problem TfL has is nothing to do with Oyster being a closed proprietary system. It is all about having to recognise *three* forms of smartcard - Oyster, ITSO and now CPCs. Supermarket readers have to recognise one - CPCs for low value transactions. Anything else card based involves the contact element of the card being placed inside the reader. The other crucial factor is how people interract with the readers. I have never seen people tap their purse, wallet or handbag or jacket pocket on a retail card unit. People specifically choose the card they wish to pay with and use that on or in the reader. Transport is different because people are inevitably in a mad dash and have for many years adopted a range of behaviours about where they keep their travel ticket and what they keep with it. The ability for a smartcard to be read through a bag or pocket or wallet has reinforced the "don't bother to take the card out" behaviour. Now the technology has been updated those long learnt behaviours have to change. Even if the system was entirely CPC based there would still be card clash because many people will have more than one CPC in their wallet e.g. a debit card and a credit card. It is the presence of more than one card and the target being unable to clearly identify one is the issue. I make no judgement as to what is "right". I've always kept my travelcard separate from any other card - even when they were issued on bits of cardboard never mind being a magnetic ticket or an Oyster Card. |
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 19, 2014 19:00:48 GMT
So do Tescos.
So presumably the technology is now tested in the field already.
If TfL has a problem, is it because Oyster is a specific system in its' own right, and not a generic card system ie debit/credit etc. within which the supermarket's software has to recognize a number of different types of card and a whole lot more card issuers?? The problem TfL has is nothing to do with Oyster being a closed proprietary system. It is all about having to recognise *three* forms of smartcard - Oyster, ITSO and now CPCs. Supermarket readers have to recognise one - CPCs for low value transactions. Anything else card based involves the contact element of the card being placed inside the reader. The other crucial factor is how people interract with the readers. I have never seen people tap their purse, wallet or handbag or jacket pocket on a retail card unit. People specifically choose the card they wish to pay with and use that on or in the reader. Transport is different because people are inevitably in a mad dash and have for many years adopted a range of behaviours about where they keep their travel ticket and what they keep with it. The ability for a smartcard to be read through a bag or pocket or wallet has reinforced the "don't bother to take the card out" behaviour. Now the technology has been updated those long learnt behaviours have to change. Even if the system was entirely CPC based there would still be card clash because many people will have more than one CPC in their wallet e.g. a debit card and a credit card. It is the presence of more than one card and the target being unable to clearly identify one is the issue. I make no judgement as to what is "right". I've always kept my travelcard separate from any other card - even when they were issued on bits of cardboard never mind being a magnetic ticket or an Oyster Card. I'm unfortunately unlike most shoppers, then, because I don't tend to decide which of my cards I'm using to pay until I get to the checkout. Everyone to their own, of course, but I may not be the only one trying to juggle a modest amount of available funds around several credit and debit cards for everyday purchases. I certainly agree most of us keep our travel ticket, in whatever guise, separate and often to hand on a journey. In which case, it's a shame that updated technology maybe isn't benefitting the users on TfL with touchless. So why bother with it, unless it has a truly major benefit for them? Why should we have to learn new behaviours, fps, just to keep the suits happy? |
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