Colin
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My preserved fire engine!
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Post by Colin on Aug 25, 2014 1:47:59 GMT
I noticed whilst passing through Embankment recently that part of the "false wall" on the Eastbound platform has been removed and in consequence has exposed an old map.
Although there's chicken wire over it I'd seriously appreciate it if one our photographers might happen to have their camera handy......
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 25, 2014 7:11:07 GMT
I noticed whilst passing through Embankment recently that part of the "false wall" on the Eastbound platform has been removed and in consequence has exposed an old map. Although there's chicken wire over it I'd seriously appreciate it if one our photographers might happen to have their camera handy...... I can pop along on Thursday if it's still there then.  |
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 25, 2014 7:38:58 GMT
Given the age of the cladding panels it should only be from the 1980s
The panels were made by Boos + Hahn in Germany who are no longer in the vitreous enamel business. Hope they haven't damaged the section that has been taken down
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 25, 2014 19:50:34 GMT
I might be able to pass that way tomorrow.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2014 22:24:41 GMT
I also noticed bits of the original platform wall last time I passed through, nice to see relatively well preserved behind all that panelling!
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Post by MoreToJack on Aug 25, 2014 23:51:00 GMT
One of my Twitter friends has turned up these two images from another Twitter user. Map is pre-Thameslink from the 80s and looks to be pretty interesting, especially for young'uns like myself. Have another friend who is aiming to photograph it tomorrow, so hopefully I can share some of those.
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Colin
Advisor
My preserved fire engine!
Posts: 11,310
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Post by Colin on Aug 26, 2014 0:38:57 GMT
Excellent - I had a feeling it would be an interesting find!
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 26, 2014 9:34:52 GMT
It is-great photos.
Aldwych on there, so must be pre-1994.
No City Thameslink station or even services, which started in 1987, so must pre-date that.
If we can get another go further east, if Blake Hall is still on the Central, it's pre-1981 & if Hackney Wick is not on the overground lines, then it's pre-1979.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 26, 2014 11:51:48 GMT
It is-great photos.
Aldwych on there, so must be pre-1994.
No City Thameslink station or even services, which started in 1987, so must pre-date that. Thameslink actually started operation in 1988 Other pointers- No West London line north of Olympia so pre 1994 Westbourne Park BR and Primrose Hill open so pre 1992 No separate H&C line, and orange used for BR rather than the ELL means pre 1990 If we can get another go further east, if Blake Hall is still on the Central, it's pre-1981 & if Hackney Wick is not on the overground lines, then it's pre-1979. [/font][/quote] I don't think it is: More clues - Jubilee Line open to Charing Cross, so post 1978 Tottenham & Hampstead route running to Gospel Oak, not Kentish Town, suggests post 1981 All-day "Bedpan" service to Moorgate suggests post 1983. So I think we've narrowed it down to 1982-88. If only we could see whether Broad Street is on there, we could narrow that down further - it closed in 1986. Heathrow T4 opened two monts later: is that there? Any mention of Network South east? (launched 10/6/86) Is it Wood Green BR, or Alexandra Palace (remnamed 1982)? Watford Stadium (opened late 1982) Dalston Kingsland (opened 1983)? Coulsden North (closed 1983) Woodside - sanderstead (closed 1983) Lea Bridge (closed July 1985)? Any mention of Capitalcard (introduced Jan 1985)? network South east (June 1986)? (Edit - two clinchers perhaps) 1. It looks as if the North London Line arrangements are post electrification to North Woolwich (May 1985) as there is no turnback indicated at Cally Rd and B, and the "peak hour" section through Primrose Hill continues in parallel beyond Camden Road (to Broad Street or Liv St) rather than merging with the main route as you would expect if Broad Street were still the terminus of the Richmond route. 2/ No indication of Inter City Cross Country services calling at Olympia (launched May 1986), So I think it's the 1985/86 timetable www.networksoutheast.net/jan-1982-to-may-1986.htmlI notice the South London Line and Queens park - Stonebridge Park - (Harrow?) is shown as peak hours only: when was the offpeak service restored? It seems to go beyond Stonebridge Park, which would date it after 1984 (or possibly pre-1982) |
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Post by brigham on Aug 26, 2014 12:30:29 GMT
"Old map exposed at Embankment"
False alarm. The Victoria Line is on it!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 13:18:50 GMT
"Old map exposed at Embankment" False alarm. The Victoria Line is on it! What, so it has to be from before the 1960s to be considered old in your book? |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 26, 2014 14:27:49 GMT
[quote source="/post/393460/thread" timestamp="1409045692" I notice the South London Line and Queens park - Stonebridge Park - (Harrow?) is shown as peak hours only: when was the offpeak service restored? It seems to go beyond Stonebridge Park, which would date it after 1984 (or possibly pre-1982)
This, from Mike Horne's The Bakerloo Line book, is what the 1983 map showed of that service and Queens Park to Stonebridge, for which service reduction to peak-hours only, I'm so far unable to find a date:
However, the WHOLE Stonebridge Park <=====> Harrow shows on 1985's map as peak-hours only & the entire Stonebridge Pk. <===============> Watford Junction section is on 1977's map as peak-hours only. Sorry I can't locate other years at present.
As for SLL, the peak-hours Mon-Fri only service ceased in May 1991
,having gone into that mode in May 1984(from the Middleton Press album on SLL-Vic Mitchell/Keith Smith), Sunday trains ceased 1976, Saturday trains 1981.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 26, 2014 15:01:21 GMT
As for SLL, the peak-hours Mon-Fri only service ceased in May 1991, having gone into that mode in May 1984. I assume you mean the off peak service was restored in 1991, rather than that the previously peak hours only service was withdrawn completely!That definitely puts the date of the map after May 1984 then. |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 26, 2014 15:18:47 GMT
Yes, the pre-1981 service(Mon-Fri & Saturdays)was restored in 1991 on SLL.
Even if it's 'only' 1986, it's still over 25 years old, and no mean artefact-hope it gets back to the museum, as, if you are correct, it's from one of those at-the-crossroads dates, immediately before Thameslink, H & C being branded as such(which is exactly what it was called when built) and a separate line, etc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 16:29:15 GMT
I first read the title as "Old man exposed at Embankment". Imagine my disappointment...
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Post by superteacher on Aug 26, 2014 16:42:58 GMT
Bakerloo line was restored to Harrow and Wealdstone in 1984 (peak hours only). I believe the off peak service began in 1988.
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Post by crusty54 on Aug 26, 2014 17:00:42 GMT
It's a BR produced map.
Shortly afterwards the Tube map standards were applied to the London Railways maps.
The Museum will have copies of the map.
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Antje
侵略! S系, でゲソ! The Tube comes from the bottom of London!
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Post by Antje on Aug 26, 2014 17:12:58 GMT
Eltham is shown as one station: the merger came to effect on 17 March 1985. Lea Bridge is on the map: it closed on 8 July 1985. Hence the map is early 1985.       All photos by none other than myself. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Aug 26, 2014 19:02:42 GMT
Richmond - North Woolwich open therefore after 13/5/85
Lea Bridge still open therefore before 8/7/85.
We've therefore pinned it down to an eight-week window!
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Post by superteacher on Aug 26, 2014 19:34:53 GMT
I had a copy of the big fold up London Connections map from 1982, which I think was the first year that they were published. I remember spending hours looking at it send thinking about all of the places on the map. Seeing this has brought back great memories. Sadly my own map is long gone.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 26, 2014 20:19:06 GMT
According to the National Library of Australia, if that is Thirkell Cooper designers I see on the latest photos, this might be the original source of our map: Author
Network SouthEast
Scale
Scale indeterminable.
Description
SouthEast, [England] : Network SouthEast, [1985?]
2 maps on 1 sheet : both sides, col. ; 36 x 51 cm. on sheet 42 x 62 cm., folded to 21 x 9 cm.
Full contents
Title on map: Network SouthEast / designed by Allan Cooper. On verso: London connections / designed by Cooper Thirkell.
Notes
Both maps show suburban railroad and subway lines diagrammatically.
Panel title.
Includes Customer information.
Maps of SouthEast and London showing principal interchange stations, ships, hovercrafts, jetfoils, stations for airports and new station opening Autumn 1986.
"CAS/PO3258"
Subjects
Railroads - England - London - Maps. | Railroads - England - London metropolitan area - Maps. | Subways - England - London - Maps. | Subways - England - London Metropolitan Area - Maps.
Time Coverage
1985
Other authors/contributors
Cooper, Allan | Thirkell, Cooper
Also Titled
Network SouthEast
London connections
If so, what would the opening Autumn 1986 station be? The other interesting part is why Lea Bridge Station didn't get blocked off, as in this 1981 example:  Intriguing! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 20:24:34 GMT
If so, what would the opening Autumn 1986 station be? At a guess based on Antje's image - Heathrow Terminal 4? It did open in April 1986 I believe, but it may have been early? |
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Post by Chris W on Aug 26, 2014 20:26:21 GMT
I first read the title as "Old man exposed at Embankment". Imagine my disappointment... Why are you disappointed...?? Colin (who started this thread) doesn't look a day under 90  But but then with kids in tow, I don't look a day under 100  Great find gents.... it's wonderful when little bits of history appear from nowhere.... and that's just the Admins !  |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 26, 2014 20:28:02 GMT
If so, what would the opening Autumn 1986 station be? At a guess based on Antje's image - Heathrow Terminal 4? It did open in April 1986 I believe, but it may have been early? According to Wiki: The station opened on 12 April 1986 to serve the then recently opened Heathrow Terminal 4Splendid, thank you, tut! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 20:31:40 GMT
I could be wrong! But it was certainly no bother |
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Post by londonstuff on Aug 26, 2014 23:21:39 GMT
Is any of the surrounding tile work exposed? Anything of interest or out of the ordinary?
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Post by brigham on Aug 27, 2014 0:25:57 GMT
"Old map exposed at Embankment" False alarm. The Victoria Line is on it! What, so it has to be from before the 1960s to be considered old in your book? Well, let's put it this way: If the title had read "1980s Map exposed at Embankment", I might have taken medical advice before I opened it, in case the excitement was too much for me! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 0:31:56 GMT
Is any of the surrounding tile work exposed? Anything of interest or out of the ordinary? On the Bakerloo Line platforms, a few panels have been removed showing the old Leslie Green tiling scheme and manky looking ceiling, and an indiana jones poster fron the 80's! |
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Antje
侵略! S系, でゲソ! The Tube comes from the bottom of London!
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Post by Antje on Aug 27, 2014 7:03:55 GMT
Richmond - North Woolwich open therefore after 13/5/85 Lea Bridge still open therefore before 8/7/85. We've therefore pinned it down to an eight-week window! Definitely has to be May 1985 because the completion of the NLL in that original form must have warranted some publicity. Unsurprisingly, I do not expect that 1980s maps would have a long accuracy lifespan like the maps of today. Like today, I expected the maps of the 1980s to be changed over in as little as six months. |
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 27, 2014 9:30:48 GMT
According to the Subterranea Brittanica site(source Nick Catford), BR original proposed to close Lea Bridge on 1 October 1984, but after receiving several objections, this was deferred(my underlining) until 8 July 1985.
The Richmond <====> North Woolwich service was electrified and commenced as that in May 1985's timetable. Tottenham from North Woolwich remained a diesel service and there were 4 morning/3 evening services through Lea Bridge from Stratford Main for the 8 weeks from then until Lea Bridge's closure to passengers.
The question is also when would the map have been prepared & proof read. I suspect it was before the closure was formally confirmed by whoever the Sec. of State was then-could that have been dear old Ceecil Parkinson?-otherwise Lea Bridge would have a dagger or star against it on the map.
Anyway, as this map was on the Tube, and Lea Bridge wasn't, any footnotes on the original pocket-map were unlikely to be bothered about by LT staff who were not advertising connections with a BR station.
I'd suspect it went up in May 1985, just possibly June, but not July, simply because of when the tourists start flooding in to London. That is who the map is primarily for, and with less of them around at non-peak times, there would be a better chance of putting it up unhindered by hundreds of our wonderful Japanese friends, who love to photograph anything to do with London & especially its' transport system.
And who can blame them? 
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