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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 10, 2014 16:59:54 GMT
I know but why 2 x 4 rather than just 1 eight-car unit? As I understand it, the Electrostar design (such as LO's existing fleet of class 378s) can only operate as three- four- or five-car units. If you want a six car train you need to form it from two separate 3-car sets and couple them together. (I'm not sure, but I have read somewhere that S stock is actually made up of two single-ended units, although they are permanently coupled together). Depending on what stock the NE London services get, the same design constraints may apply.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 17:19:30 GMT
Watford DC already has 4-car trains running, so what are you talking about?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 17:31:15 GMT
The S stock and 09 stock are two 4 car units coupled back to back.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 10, 2014 17:52:51 GMT
The 5 car limit was something to do with there being a power limit within the control circuits wasn't it?
Incidentally, does anyone know any links to pictures of the extended platforms?
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Post by dazz285 on Nov 10, 2014 17:53:11 GMT
The DC will be upgrading to 5 car, when they fix the power problems. Then when the new units are built some will replace the 5 car with 4 car.. Odd I know but it seems that the DC is always playing second fiddle to the NLL.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 17:56:41 GMT
OK Ben. That probably explains why. It'll be interesting to see what LO does with the trains if the route even gets taken over by the London Underground Bakerloo line.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2014 23:14:54 GMT
There are no plans in the future to re-extend the Bakerloo north of Harrow & W. Rather the plans now are to extend south! The reason that the 5-car 378s will be cascaded back to the NLL and ELL is to enhance services on those lines by 2018. This is because the DC line is adjudged to only require 4-car trains. Given that the Queens Park to H&W section is covered by a frequent Bakerloo service and that after 2017 Watford Junction and Watford H St will have a frequent Met line service too, and then there is the LM and Southern services also serving those latter stations plus H&W and (southern) at Wembley Central.........etc. TfL, not unreasonably feel that 4-car trains are quite sufficient! However, that may well all change post-2019 (during HS2 construction) when/if the DC line is diverted away from Euston via Primrose Hill and the NLL. If that happens then 5-car units may well be needed.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2014 19:57:24 GMT
Does anyhow know any timings for any 5-car trains or has a timetable not been finalised yet?
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Post by phil on Nov 14, 2014 2:48:02 GMT
Watford DC already has 4-car trains running, so what are you talking about? I believe that what the original poster may have been getting at is the manufacturer of the Electrostar range (Bombardier) has said that they cannot supply / lengthen a single class 378 unit in more than a 5 car configuration due to the way certain parts of the train have been designed. hence if tfL ever did want to go up to a six car train then they need to either replace the entire fleet or reconfigure it to make the current 378 units back into 3 car trains and use two in multiple (plus add additional new build units to supplement them). Now its easy to say "why not update them" but from Bombardiers point of view the entire Electrostar train is actually a pretty "old" platform technology wise and they have ruled out modifying the 378 (or earlier) design. Instead they have developed a replacement which - although it uses very similar bodyshells (for the moment) to the current Electrostar family, is fundamentally different underneath. So different in fact that although the very latest version (Class 387) can couple to a class 377 for rescue purposes, they cannot run in normal service together.
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paulsw2
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Post by paulsw2 on Nov 14, 2014 3:26:38 GMT
The S stock and 09 stock are two 4 car units coupled back to back. S8 are 2 x 4 cars units permanently coupled S7 are 1 x 3 (odd ) and 1 x 4 (even) permanently coupled
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2014 8:24:11 GMT
Forgot about the S7 only having 7 cars.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2014 15:33:44 GMT
TfL have now confirmed via an FOI that the additional 6 new 4-car units (over and above the 8 for GOB, 1 for Romford-Upminster and 30 for West Anglia) being ordered, will be for the Watford DC Line to allow for the cascade of 5-car 378s back to the North London and East London lines in 2017/18.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Dec 1, 2014 17:49:33 GMT
TfL have now confirmed via an FOI that the additional 6 new 4-car units (over and above the 8 for GOB, 1 for Romford-Upminster and 30 for West Anglia) being ordered, will be for the Watford DC Line to allow for the cascade of 5-car 378s back to the North London and East London lines in 2017/18. Tim, will these be 387 variants or a further batch of the 378/2 stock?
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Post by bicbasher on Dec 1, 2014 17:54:30 GMT
I spotted the 5 car unit southbound at Whitechapel at 1605 today out of service. This was sandwiched between the West Croydon and Crystal Palace service, of which I was on and terminated at NXG due to congestion at Surrey Quays.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2014 22:34:12 GMT
TfL have now confirmed via an FOI that the additional 6 new 4-car units (over and above the 8 for GOB, 1 for Romford-Upminster and 30 for West Anglia) being ordered, will be for the Watford DC Line to allow for the cascade of 5-car 378s back to the North London and East London lines in 2017/18. Tim, will these be 387 variants or a further batch of the 378/2 stock? Depends on who wins the contract! If its Bombardier it will probably be an updated version of the 378. However, as there is a very active discussion going on in TfL about train formations on West Anglia Inners, i.e. should more trains be run as 8-car formations (not just in the peaks) there might be an 8-car variant such as two half-trains permanently coupled together to get over the unit length limitations with the 378s but again it depends on who wins the contract, for example, a Siemens product would not have the limitation of the Electrostar family. We won't really know anything until late spring or early summer 2015. All we do know for definite is that trains on GOB, Romford-Upminster and Watford DC will be 4-car only!
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Post by phil on Dec 2, 2014 10:24:24 GMT
Tim, will these be 387 variants or a further batch of the 378/2 stock? Depends on who wins the contract! If its Bombardier it will probably be an updated version of the 378. However, as there is a very active discussion going on in TfL about train formations on West Anglia Inners, i.e. should more trains be run as 8-car formations (not just in the peaks) there might be an 8-car variant such as two half-trains permanently coupled together to get over the unit length limitations with the 378s but again it depends on who wins the contract, for example, a Siemens product would not have the limitation of the Electrostar family. We won't really know anything until late spring or early summer 2015. All we do know for definite is that trains on GOB, Romford-Upminster and Watford DC will be 4-car only! Just to re-emphasise Bombardier can make trains more than 5 cars long! The limitation is on the OLD(er) technology use for the class 378 (and 378, 377, etc) that has now been completely replaced with the class 387 - which despite looking very similar, have signifficant changes compared to earlier versions of Electrostars such that multiple working between 387s and 379 /378 / 377 / 376 / 375 is impossible (though in an emergency one can rescue the other). If TfL require additional trains the Bombardier's offer will, under the hood (to borrow an automotive term) use class 387 technology and will therefore be capable of being provided in grater than 5 car unit configurations - i.e. 8 cars is perfectly possible. Bombardier will not be supplying further complete 378 (or indeed 377) units, certainly not as part of a large new order like TfL are making. They will however be offering a solution based on the 387 platfrom which may well look visually very similar to the existing 378s
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Post by bicbasher on Dec 3, 2014 16:34:02 GMT
I managed to ride the 5 car unit today between Forest Hill and Surrey Quays.
Some observations:
I didn't hear the x car of 5 message. Presumably these only come on when the unit reaches Canada Water and other short platform stations on the core? The internal CIS LED displays didn't work on the new carriage. Stickers are on the end carriage doors informing passengers that those won't open at certain stations.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 19:24:18 GMT
It would only be heard on approach to the affected stations onwards unlike the S7 & S8 stock.
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Post by dazz285 on Mar 20, 2015 15:41:47 GMT
Word is that first 5 car for NLL in May, fingers crossed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2015 0:23:37 GMT
will 5 car services run on any other LO routes? the watford dc in particular Yes they will be introduced on the DC line. However, in all probability when the new trains for GOB and West Anglia are delivered in 2017-18, the 5-car DC line 378s will be cascaded back to the NLL and ELL to enhance services. The base order for new rolling stock has been increased from 39 to 45 4-car units - the increase of 6 being suspiciously equal to the number of units required to operate the DC line service which only requires 4-car units! This is incorrect as the base order for the Overground was 57 units 9 with additional ones planned for the GOBLIN as I mused awhile ago about the coincidence that the old 501 stock was 57 ft long and consisted of a 57 unit build all those years ago! From Wikipedia breakdown of 378 variants etc. Class Operator No. Built Year Built Cars per Set Unit nos. Notes Class 378/1 London Overground 20 2009–2010 4 or 5 378135–378154 Third-rail only Class 378/2 24 2008–2010 378201–378224 Originally built as 3-car Class 378/0 (378001–378024) 13 2010–2011 378225–378234 378255–378257 In February 2013, approval was gained for the procurement of 57 additional vehicles to lengthen the Class 378 fleet from four to five cars.[10] TfL's Business Plan provides for the start of five-car services on the East London line from November 2014, and on the rest of the electrified Overground network by the end of 2015.[11][12]
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Post by jukes on Apr 20, 2015 14:59:52 GMT
To clarify the current and future positions re rolling stock. The Class 378 fleet now totals 57 units with no additional options taken up except for the order for 57 additional cars to make them all up to 5-cars. Class 378s will not run on GOB. The new base order for LO Rolling Stock for the West Anglia Inners, GOB and Romford to Upminster is 45 4-car units with an option for a) additional cars to form 5-car units and/or b) additional complete units (number so far unspecified) for additional services. Included in the new base order is 6 4-car units which will be allocated to DC line services to allow the 6 5-car 378/2s to be cascaded back to strengthen NLL and ELL services in 2018.
So, to recap, the 5-car Class 378 fleet will be confined by 2018 to running on NLL & WLL (378/2s) and the ELL (378/1s and some 378/2s). The new rolling stock (45 4-car units) for which an ITT has just been issued: GOB will receive 8 new 4-car units, West Anglia Inners get 30 4-car units, Romford-Upminster get one 4-car unit and the Watford DC line gets 6 4-car units. In addition to the ITT, this has all been confirmed by TfL in a recent response to an FOI request and by the Commissioner in his report to the TfL Board.
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Post by Chris M on Apr 20, 2015 23:17:09 GMT
I presume the new 4-car units have yet to have a class number assigned to them?
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Post by jukes on Apr 21, 2015 14:13:37 GMT
Class number will be assigned fairly soon by the RSL.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Apr 21, 2015 16:45:02 GMT
Also still waiting for a class number for Scotrail's AT200s - presumably both will be in the 7xx series unless they can be deemed a new sub- of an existing -class. (e.g Bombardier's 345s or 387s)
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Post by rapidtransitman on Apr 21, 2015 17:09:11 GMT
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Post by jukes on Apr 21, 2015 17:13:57 GMT
Just as a matter of interest, I was at a meeting about 4 months ago discussing the new rolling stock for the Moorgate inner suburban services (replaces the 313s) and in the margins we were gossiping, oooops, I mean having a technical discussion on the side. It was mentioned that the new LO stock would be dual voltage and have trip cocks. I have no idea how accurate or authoritative that is as I have yet to see the tech spec issued with the ITT.
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Post by domh245 on Apr 21, 2015 19:34:57 GMT
Would that be because of the desire to use these new trains on the DC lines out of euston, which are tripcock fitted.
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Post by jukes on Apr 23, 2015 21:23:29 GMT
Yes although it appears that decision was made before it was decided to order 6 extra units for the DC Line! The other interesting bit of news I have just received from TfL is that there will be no corridor connection between units when running in 8 car formation on the WA Inner lines. I am seeking clarification of this.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2015 15:11:26 GMT
Does anyone know when all trains on the East London Line will be 5-car?
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Post by snoggle on May 8, 2015 19:13:58 GMT
Does anyone know when all trains on the East London Line will be 5-car? Happy to be corrected but I thought all ELL trains were now 5 car given LOROL has moved on to lengthening the trains on the NLL / WLL.
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