Night Shift Rotas

[Deleted]

Hi all

I was pondering the other day in my special little way what the arrangements for train ops (and station staff) will be when 24 tubes come into effect.  New recruits will obviously be joining up in full anticipation of ferrying the 3am waif and strays around, but what will be the arrangement for old hands whose contracts, presumably, don't take into account night shifts?  Will it just be rota'd in with appropriate time off in lieu, or will it vary by depot?  If pay will increase for doing night shifts, will this not agitate train ops on lines who won't be tubing 24hrs and therefore not have a chance to earn more?  Conversely, could train ops who never anticipated having to work through the night opt out?

Given the changes in conditions and knowing the RMT's fondness for industrial action, I can't help but feel there may be rough seas ahead!

[Deleted]

Nobody knows yet! (Click)

(Unless things have changed since Mr Shrugged wrote his post)

[domh245]

Unless I'm mistaken, there is currently a night shift (which is part of normal agreements ISTR), who will usually clock on to run the last trains, and then finish by running the first trains, and usually do shunting in-between. I'm guessing it is the people who would normally be on this shift that will be responsible for the overnight trains. There aren't all that many trains running, so I'd imagine that you'd only need a fairly small amount of T/Ops, about the same number as those on the night shift at the moment.

[North End]

Mar 18, 2015 23:36:47 GMT domh245 said:

Unless I'm mistaken, there is currently a night shift (which is part of normal agreements ISTR), who will usually clock on to run the last trains, and then finish by running the first trains, and usually do shunting in-between. I'm guessing it is the people who would normally be on this shift that will be responsible for the overnight trains. There aren't all that many trains running, so I'd imagine that you'd only need a fairly small amount of T/Ops, about the same number as those on the night shift at the moment.

It will definitely need quite an increase in nights. On the Northern Line, for example, -IIRC currently there are only 10 night duties, 2 of which are spare turns.

The planned service will require at least (bare minimum) 18 trains running, plus you can't have the same driver on the train all night as a meal relief is required.

All this is a good example why Night Tube is not an efficient way of delivering public transport overnight. The running costs of LUL are immense compared to night buses. It's not efficient to have the system running to carry around a comparatively small number of people, who are currently reasonably well catered for by night buses.

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 0:41:48 GMT North End said:

Mar 18, 2015 23:36:47 GMT domh245 said:

Unless I'm mistaken, there is currently a night shift (which is part of normal agreements ISTR), who will usually clock on to run the last trains, and then finish by running the first trains, and usually do shunting in-between. I'm guessing it is the people who would normally be on this shift that will be responsible for the overnight trains. There aren't all that many trains running, so I'd imagine that you'd only need a fairly small amount of T/Ops, about the same number as those on the night shift at the moment.

It will definitely need quite an increase in nights. On the Northern Line, for example, -IIRC currently there are only 10 night duties, 2 of which are spare turns.

The planned service will require at least (bare minimum) 18 trains running, plus you can't have the same driver on the train all night as a meal relief is required.

All this is a good example why Night Tube is not an efficient way of delivering public transport overnight. The running costs of LUL are immense compared to night buses. It's not efficient to have the system running to carry around a comparatively small number of people, who are currently reasonably well catered for by night buses.

But...but...but it looks great on the front cover of the Evening Standard...

[DWS]

Mar 18, 2015 23:36:47 GMT domh245 said:

Unless I'm mistaken, there is currently a night shift (which is part of normal agreements ISTR), who will usually clock on to run the last trains, and then finish by running the first trains, and usually do shunting in-between. I'm guessing it is the people who would normally be on this shift that will be responsible for the overnight trains. There aren't all that many trains running, so I'd imagine that you'd only need a fairly small amount of T/Ops, about the same number as those on the night shift at the moment.

Shunting in-between, I like to know on which line/ depot this takes place ? Train Operators are on a break after the last train is stabled and the first train starts in the morning.

[pitdiver]

What about the station staff that will be required to run a station. Particularly those in the centre will the same number that is required during the day be required at night.
As an ex Station Supervisor I use to work nights. I hated it. It wasn't so much the night working but the transitioning back to days. This was what messed up my body clock. Because of this transitioning period won't more day staff be required to cover for those coming off nights.

[rheostar]

Once they've stabled their trains, night shift drivers spend the rest of the night in the canteen or mess room until they bring out their trains first thing in the morning. The only time they might run trains during the night is during the winter running sleet trains.

There's a recruitment drive for station staff currently under way and Ashfield House is full of them. They're there to replace the station staff that are training as T/Ops for the increased numbers required for night tube.

People might knock Night Tube, but it's providing a lot of extra jobs on London Underground.

[North End]

Mar 19, 2015 7:52:54 GMT DWS said:

Mar 18, 2015 23:36:47 GMT domh245 said:

Unless I'm mistaken, there is currently a night shift (which is part of normal agreements ISTR), who will usually clock on to run the last trains, and then finish by running the first trains, and usually do shunting in-between. I'm guessing it is the people who would normally be on this shift that will be responsible for the overnight trains. There aren't all that many trains running, so I'd imagine that you'd only need a fairly small amount of T/Ops, about the same number as those on the night shift at the moment.

Shunting in-between, I like to know on which line/ depot this takes place ? Train Operators are on a break after the last train is stabled and the first train starts in the morning.

At High Barnet the night crews quite often end up shunting trains in and out of the shunting neck during the night, if any work overnight has resulted in the traction current being taken off for more than a short period it sends all the stabled trains NCT, requiring re-entry to the system. Another less-than-desirable feature of Seltrac.

I suspect the same occurs at Stanmore. The reason is that Seltrac was specified as like-for-like, therefore sidings previously fully signalled remain so. 95 stock starts to load shed when off current, one item on the load shed list is the VOBC.

I know a few managers who collar night drivers for P&Ds etc. Not popular, but technically the driver can't refuse, except during the booked half-hour meal relief.

[DWS]

Mar 19, 2015 20:17:18 GMT North End said:

Mar 19, 2015 7:52:54 GMT DWS said:

Shunting in-between, I like to know on which line/ depot this takes place ? Train Operators are on a break after the last train is stabled and the first train starts in the morning.

At High Barnet the night crews quite often end up shunting trains in and out of the shunting neck during the night, if any work overnight has resulted in the traction current being taken off for more than a short period it sends all the stabled trains NCT, requiring re-entry to the system. Another less-than-desirable feature of Seltrac.

I suspect the same occurs at Stanmore. The reason is that Seltrac was specified as like-for-like, therefore sidings previously fully signalled remain so. 95 stock starts to load shed when off current, one item on the load shed list is the VOBC.

I know a few managers who collar night drivers for P&Ds etc. Not popular, but technically the driver can't refuse, except during the booked half-hour meal relief.

Well things have changed from since I worked on the Underground .

[Deleted]

Mar 19, 2015 8:25:19 GMT pitdiver said:

What about the station staff that will be required to run a station. Particularly those in the centre will the same number that is required during the day be required at night.

Obviously Section 12 regulations will still have to be met, so I imagine the ones in the centre will have to be pretty "staffed-up" - but possibly less so. It's surely worth noting that night tube is likely to involve ferrying an awful lot of very drunk people which may require quite a lot of staff. No guarantee they'll be provided though if the east end of the Central line at the moment is a guide. Towards the end of the day the T/Ops who blog report that it can be quite deserted staffing wise and auxsetreq has voiced concerns about whether there'll be any help tipping out - which there certainly doesn't seem to be at the moment.

Mar 19, 2015 20:17:18 GMT North End said:

I know a few managers who collar night drivers for P&Ds etc.

What're P&Ds, sorry?

[Deleted]

Performance and Development its similar to a appraisal it suppose to happen in April where you get set targets and then in September its reviewed

[Deleted]

How can drivers be set targets? Surely most of the things that cause delays and hamper performance (crowds, signals etc) are out of their hands?

[rheostar]

Mar 20, 2015 7:30:35 GMT @forumusernametaken said:

How can drivers be set targets? Surely most of the things that cause delays and hamper performance (crowds, signals etc) are out of their hands?

Targets such as arriving for work on time, in full uniform, correct PPE, not having SPADs (depends on the line for that one), making customer announcements within the target time (no more than 30 seconds after a train's stationary), keeping the train to time...and much, much more.

[Tomcakes]

If there has been service disruption and stock is out of place, and if there are no engineering works occurring, are the night shift drivers ever used to balance rolling stock out?

[North End]

Mar 20, 2015 10:36:59 GMT Tomcakes said:

If there has been service disruption and stock is out of place, and if there are no engineering works occurring, are the night shift drivers ever used to balance rolling stock out?

Basically no, because realistically there is never a night with no engineering work somewhere. It would only happen if the stock balance was so badly out with major consequences for the next morning and couldn't be corrected any other way.

The nearest you get is if a defective train needs to be moved from siding to major depot and the nature of the defect means it can't run in traffic hours (eg stuck at slow speed, or at risk of becoming stalled). It becomes a balancing act between the need to move the train versus the consequences of cancelling or reducing engineering hours.

I think most outsiders would be surprised just how much work occurs in engineering hours. Some of it is non-essential, eg trackside poster changing, whilst other stuff eg re-railing can be rescheduled, albeit wasting the cost of a night's work.

[Deleted]

Mar 20, 2015 10:32:06 GMT rheostar said:

Mar 20, 2015 7:30:35 GMT @forumusernametaken said:

How can drivers be set targets? Surely most of the things that cause delays and hamper performance (crowds, signals etc) are out of their hands?

Targets such as arriving for work on time, in full uniform, correct PPE, not having SPADs (depends on the line for that one), making customer announcements within the target time (no more than 30 seconds after a train's stationary), keeping the train to time...and much, much more.

Surely arriving on time and in uniform is not something that fully fledged adults have to aspire to!  I'm a primary teacher and my Year 3's manage it just fine! (Mostly..)  And I'm sorry to say that as for the rest of the targets, there's work to be done

My, my I'm a grumpy sod this evening..  

I'm going to the pub.

[Colin]

Everything is target driven and measurable these days.

You can only claim something has improved, or work towards improvement, if you have a baseline to measure against.

Many adults nowadays require motivation to achieve basic aims like arriving at work on time, doing their job (ie, make a PA) etc and so targets are set and bonus's offered.

I can't say I neccessarily agree or disagree with it, but thats how we roll now.

[superteacher]

Mar 21, 2015 7:24:08 GMT Colin said:

Everything is target driven and measurable these days.

You can only claim something has improved, or work towards improvement, if you have a baseline to measure against.

Many adults nowadays require motivation to achieve basic aims like arriving at work on time, doing their job (ie, make a PA) etc and so targets are set and bonus's offered.

I can't say I neccessarily agree or disagree with it, but thats how we roll now.

Reflection on today's society I'm afraid, when people are given incentives just to do what's in their job description.

[rheostar]

Mar 20, 2015 18:42:46 GMT @forumusernametaken said:

Surely arriving on time and in uniform is not something that fully fledged adults have to aspire to!  I'm a primary teacher and my Year 3's manage it just fine! (Mostly..)  And I'm sorry to say that as for the rest of the targets, there's work to be done

My, my I'm a grumpy sod this evening..  

I'm going to the pub.

You'd be surprised how difficult it can be to get T/Ops to wear uniform or arrive on time for their duty.

[superteacher]

Mar 21, 2015 16:20:00 GMT rheostar said:

Mar 20, 2015 18:42:46 GMT @forumusernametaken said:

Surely arriving on time and in uniform is not something that fully fledged adults have to aspire to!  I'm a primary teacher and my Year 3's manage it just fine! (Mostly..)  And I'm sorry to say that as for the rest of the targets, there's work to be done

My, my I'm a grumpy sod this evening..  

I'm going to the pub.

You'd be surprised how difficult it can be to get T/Ops to wear uniform or arrive on time for their duty.

Which is appalling in my opinion. Perhaps an invitation to join the dole queue is the answer, rather than giving people targets to do what they should be doing anyway. If they don't respect their job, they don't deserve to have it.

[hobbayne]

There are a lot of blind eyes turned regarding T/ops unforms (or lack of them) by management at some depots. Certainly they can be sent home, but if there is no spare driver to operate their train this may result in the train being being cancelled or left in the depot. You can imagine the headlines "Hundreds of commuters face delays getting home because driver was wearing the wrong shirt!"

[philthetube]

Mar 21, 2015 16:20:00 GMT rheostar said:

Mar 20, 2015 18:42:46 GMT @forumusernametaken said:

Surely arriving on time and in uniform is not something that fully fledged adults have to aspire to!  I'm a primary teacher and my Year 3's manage it just fine! (Mostly..)  And I'm sorry to say that as for the rest of the targets, there's work to be done

My, my I'm a grumpy sod this evening..  

I'm going to the pub.

You'd be surprised how difficult it can be to get T/Ops to wear uniform or arrive on time for their duty.

Do teachers not have targets, staff meetings or discussions on how they are doing their jobs?

[Deleted]

Mar 22, 2015 10:43:03 GMT philthetube said:

Mar 21, 2015 16:20:00 GMT rheostar said:

You'd be surprised how difficult it can be to get T/Ops to wear uniform or arrive on time for their duty.

Do teachers not have targets, staff meetings or discussions on how they are doing their jobs?

Yes and since Performance Related Pay has come in performance management is a big thing.  But me getting to work on time not in my pyjamas is a contractual obligation, not something I'd expect a pat on the back for.  I'm contractually obliged to do my job to the level expected of me - it isn't a target, it's an expectation! Surely in most jobs targets are about getting you up to the next level - not trying to reach the bottom rung?

I'm sorry, but having to set targets and incentivise train ops to not pass signals at red, get to work on time and generally fulfill the most fundamental basic duties expected of them is a tad on the ridiculous side!  And please don't tell me you get bonuses for it!!  

[North End]

Mar 22, 2015 11:12:41 GMT @forumusernametaken said:

Mar 22, 2015 10:43:03 GMT philthetube said:

Do teachers not have targets, staff meetings or discussions on how they are doing their jobs?

Yes and since Performance Related Pay has come in performance management is a big thing.  But me getting to work on time not in my pyjamas is a contractual obligation, not something I'd expect a pat on the back for.  I'm contractually obliged to do my job to the level expected of me - it isn't a target, it's an expectation! Surely in most jobs targets are about getting you up to the next level - not trying to reach the bottom rung?

I'm sorry, but having to set targets and incentivise train ops to not pass signals at red, get to work on time and generally fulfill the most fundamental basic duties expected of them is a tad on the ridiculous side!  And please don't tell me you get bonuses for it!!  

I think two separate things are being mixed up.

P&D targets for Train Operators don't lead to any bonus as Train Ops are not on any form of PRP. Targets set are basically things for the individual to aim for - perhaps an area where they have flagged up as falling short, or maybe a development target to help the individual work towards securing a promotion. The practical use of this is open to debate, however the right targets and support from the individual's manager can help the individual - eg a day shadowing a controller could be the next step towards a promotion or sideways move.

PRP is a completely different process which generally applies to managers, who have to physically demonstrate they have achieved targets. My personal view is that this does not work well at all. What tends to happen is that certain individuals spend a lot of time chasing perceived opportunities to demonstrate achieving a target and producing portfolios, whilst those who simply spend their time diligently getting on with their job don't get the PRP. So you end up with the worst people getting PRP, and the best people get demotivated and take the view "base level of pay, base level of performance". Also it opens up issues of people who don't get on with their manager not getting PRP, as well as the opportunity for performance figures to be gently worked to advantage.

[Deleted]

When I was at school, one of my biology teachers used to say "all students here are interested in is getting the best results with the least amount of effort possible."

[domh245]

Mar 23, 2015 0:13:28 GMT tut said:

When I was at school, one of my biology teachers used to say "all students here are interested in is getting the best results with the least amount of effort possible."

That still applies today!

[norbitonflyer]

Mar 23, 2015 0:13:28 GMT tut said:

When I was at school, one of my biology teachers used to say "all students here are interested in is getting the best results with the least amount of effort possible."

" It is the view of the Ministry that a theoretical knowledge will be sufficient to get you through your examinations, which after all, is what school is all about. "
(Dolores Umbridge, in the Harry Potter books, but sadly true of far too many real-life politicians obsessed with league tables, SATs etc)

[rheostar]

Mar 22, 2015 23:35:16 GMT North End said:

I think two separate things are being mixed up.

P&D targets for Train Operators don't lead to any bonus as Train Ops are not on any form of PRP. Targets set are basically things for the individual to aim for - perhaps an area where they have flagged up as falling short, or maybe a development target to help the individual work towards securing a promotion. The practical use of this is open to debate, however the right targets and support from the individual's manager can help the individual - eg a day shadowing a controller could be the next step towards a promotion or sideways move.

PRP is a completely different process which generally applies to managers, who have to physically demonstrate they have achieved targets. My personal view is that this does not work well at all. What tends to happen is that certain individuals spend a lot of time chasing perceived opportunities to demonstrate achieving a target and producing portfolios, whilst those who simply spend their time diligently getting on with their job don't get the PRP. So you end up with the worst people getting PRP, and the best people get demotivated and take the view "base level of pay, base level of performance". Also it opens up issues of people who don't get on with their manager not getting PRP, as well as the opportunity for performance figures to be gently worked to advantage.

This sums it up quite nicely.

[Deleted]

Mar 23, 2015 7:53:03 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Mar 23, 2015 0:13:28 GMT tut said:

When I was at school, one of my biology teachers used to say "all students here are interested in is getting the best results with the least amount of effort possible."

" It is the view of the Ministry that a theoretical knowledge will be sufficient to get you through your examinations, which after all, is what school is all about. "
(Dolores Umbridge, in the Harry Potter books, but sadly true of far too many real-life politicians obsessed with league tables, SATs etc)

I'm so glad you quoted that I've only just read those very words (not for the first time).