The olden days (pic)

[Phil]

I came across this fascinating pic. I'm sure part of the description is wrong so I'll let everyone who wants to have a go guessing, then I'll post the caption and we'll decide which bits are wrong.
Other things look wrong too, such as the signal positions etc.

Date: 1885

Loco on right is (allegedly) GNR tank.

So - where, and what else is wrong?

The Junction at Aldgate in 1885. Metropolitan District Railway locomotive 26, a 4-4-0 tank, heads an Inner Circle train, while a Great Northern Railway 0-4-0T comes up from Ludgate.

[Deleted]

Maybe the artist didn't know much about railways? (Apologies for ruining the thread!)

[Deleted]

Signal position isn't wrong Phil. It's positioned to give the driver a better view of it!

Sam

[CSLR]

sturdjos said:

Maybe the artist didn't know much about railways?

It would certainly be interesting to see what happened next. If a train emerges from the tunnel on the track to the immediate right of the signal cabin, the pointwork will guide it to a position where it is running with its wheels on the outside of each rail in the six foot way!

[Deleted]

I've seen this in a book (Can't think what book though) I think it's supposed to be around Kings Cross.

Those trains are a bit anorexic, barely wider than the track.

[Phil]

ca55ie said:

Signal position isn't wrong Phil. It's positioned to give the driver a better view of it!

Sam

I don't think that has been allowed in recent days. Plenty of cases of boards in the 6ft to aid sighting, but placed in the cess of the opposite track is pretty unusual. I can't think of anywhere else I've seen that one, though from your comments I suspect you can give me chapter and verse!

[Deleted]

There were plenty of places on the old GWR where signals were placed on the far side of the opposite track to aid sighting. I can dig out some photos if anyone is interested.

Getting back to the question that was asked, the engine on left is clearly a District engine on an Inner Circle service (the present Circle). The engine on right looks GWR to me, so I'll take a punt on the picture being supposed to show the junction between H&C and Circle east of Paddington.

[setttt]

sydneynick said:

There were plenty of places on the old GWR where signals were placed on the far side of the opposite track to aid sighting. I can dig out some photos if anyone is interested.

Aye - there's still one or two examples left in Cornwall. They were sited on the RHS to aid the drivers of right hand drive locos which were commonplace at first. I assume the signal in the pic was sited on the RHS to aid drivers of such locos.

[Phil]

Sorry Sydneynick - loco (non-district) is definitely supposed to be Great Northern: that limits the location to east of Euston Square. I'm hoping someone like Harsig will identify it, because the caption (which I'll add tomorrow) has a definite contradiction.
As to the signals, it seems I'm lacking in knowledge in this respect - a photo or two would definitely help.

[russe]

setttt said:

Aye - there's still one or two examples left in Cornwall. They were sited on the RHS to aid the drivers of right hand drive locos which were commonplace at first. I assume the signal in the pic was sited on the RHS to aid drivers of such locos.

GWR (and WR) locos were always right-hand drive. Like other railways, GWR signals were normally placed on the left-hand side of the trackbed, but could be placed on the right-hand side for easier sighting purposes on sharp curves, of which there were a lot in Cornwall.

As to the painting, it is a conjectural one, by Hamilton Ellis I think, depicting the junction of the widened lines and the Metropolitan.

Russ

[Deleted]

If you're interested Phil, Ketton's down Starter signal is still on the opposite side of the other line.

Sam

[Harsig]

Having peered at this image for a while I've come to the conclusion that it is just east of Farringdon station. For some reason the GNR train is arriving on the LCDR line.

[Phil]

You're close Harsig - or not, depending on which part of the caption you believe. When I post it, I eagerly await the consumption of the can of worms opened thereby!!!!!

[Deleted]

I agree with Harsig - it simply can't be anywhere else but Farringdon Junction.

[Deleted]

I also think it must be Farringdon.

[TMBA]

Is it Barbican/Aldersgate looking towards Kings Cross?

[Deleted]

No - there are no junctions of that sort facing in that direction at Barbican. If the painting was reversed and the double track with the GNR tank was curving in from the left, it could have been the old Southern Region-used side of the Snow Hill triangle, to provide direct access to Moorgate from the Holborn Viaduct lines.

[TMBA]

Is it Aldgate junction from the Liverpool st end looking towards Aldgate east with 119 coming from Aldgate East wrong road ! -

[Phil]

Caption now added: let the fun begin ;D ;D ;D

[Harsig]

Well that caption is definitely wrong about it being Aldgate, but right about the GN train coming from Ludgate.

This picture is recognisably the same junction



You will note the original caption can be made out at the bottom

The Junction of the London, Chatham And Dover Railway with the Metropolitan Railway, near Smithfield - See Page 86

and a further caption also accompanied this picture

Looking south from Farringdon St station in 1866. Lines to the LCDR at West St Junction and Snow Hill on right, City Widened Lines in centre, Metropolitan 'main line' on left. Note the double arm signals. The line towards Snow Hill and Blackfriars is correctly depicted in an open cutting with timber baulks supporting a structure to protect the railway from falling masonry during the construction of the Smithfireld Market (Illustrated London News, 27 January 1866)

[Phil]

Hmmm.. so we assume that the broad gauge tracks had been lifted by 1885 - and the 6ft adjusted according to the artist!

Definitely not an accurately observed scene, unlike your earlier engraving.

[Deleted]

So it is Farringdon Junction then... right?

[CSLR]

rbruce1314 said:

Definitely not an accurately observed scene, unlike your earlier engraving.

Although each artist worked differently, most of those who contributed to The Illustrated London News appear to have made detailed notes/sketches at the scene (sometimes very quickly) with the actual engravings being produced elsewhere. Their work is remarkably good, bearing in mind the conditions and pressure under which they worked. For most of the time, they were employed to try to record what they saw as accurately as possible and, as jobbing artists, it was not necessary for them to have any understanding of the subject that they were looking at. If something was missing or unclear from their notes, it had to be filled in by guessing what should be there, so inaccuracies do sometimes occur. The case of a specialist railway artist is somewhat different, as they should have some knowledge of their subject.
The engraving which Harsig has submitted does have a few perspective problems in relation to the figures (the track workers) the position and size of which appear to have been copied, and in some cases made worse, by the later artist. My view is that the original ILN artist can be excused because the figures were probably not in the original notes and were almost certainly added later, which would explain why the scale is out slightly.
I have seen this problem in other ILN engravings and attribute it to the fact that the priority of the artists was to record a scene that they had probably never seen before. They did not need to waste time making location drawings of people as they knew what people looked like and could add them to the final engraving in any position that looked good. The problem came when they failed to mark reference points to depict the height of a subject in relation to the surroundings.
We must also note that the size of the train is almost certainly inaccurate because it would not have stood still and posed for the artist.
Now, imagine the engraving without the train or the people and I think that you may have a pretty reasonable representation of what the artist saw.
What I find interesting is the point at which the artist was located when recording this picture. This appears to be, quite logically, in the larger space between the two sets of running rails and raised in the air by something like 7 - 10 feet (no metric measurements in those days).
Does anyone know what there is/was at this point?

[mandgc]

The location is Farringdon.
The GNR ran through trains to the LCDR.
The painting is not by Hamilton Ellis - it is not in his style and as he "Loved Trains" he knew how to draw Points and Track !

[Deleted]

On the original caption, "Aldgate" is presumably a typo or other transcription error for "Aldersgate." Not sure if G.N.R. locos were running cross-river services in 1885 - lots of different people had a go, I'm not sure if anyone found out how to make it pay... was the "inner rail" of the (Inner) Circle the MDR's or the Met's in motive power terms, I know they had one each in steam days but which was whose I dunno... the wheel arrangement of the GNR loco is wrong, I think it should be 0-4-4WT.

[mandgc]

Widened lines Services-

H P White's Regional Railways says " In the 1880s about 200 trains arrived at Moorgate on the Widened Lines and 100 ran South to Snow Hill. Before the Tubes and Motor Buses there were all sorts of Cross London steam services (Willesden Junction and GWR to Victoria, Kentish Town and GNR to Snow Hill and beyond, and the various Circles) Moorgate to Snow Hill, etc. was the last (till 1916) and even then the Met tried too get them to restore the service after the 1914 to 1918 War.

[Deleted]

Moorgate to Woolwich was indeed an SER service (via the dissapeared east to south curve at Farringdon) - I belive they were withdrawn to proviode freight train paths via the widened lines to the South coast for the military effort in France.Look carefully out of the window near the west wall on Thameslink and you can see a GWR boundary marker.

Re cross London services pre WW1 - one of the more fascinating was a Midland Cricklewood - Victoria via the Dudding Hill line - one of many to dissapear after the advent of deep level tubes and motor buses.(in this case - Kilburn - Baker Street Met / Bakerloo / Embankment - quciker and cleaner !) Even with 2 changes - or the bus direct !

[mandgc]

The GWR Boundary Post at Farringdon would have indicated the entrance to the GWR Goods Depot under Smithfield Market.

[Deleted]

Some of the Smithfield Goods depot - including the wagon turntables - are supposed to be extant in "the catacombs" (this may be another Urban Myth of course) -