Pink Oyster Readers

[Deleted]

This is something I probably should know as a member of the traveling public..

What is the deal with the pink oyster readers found when changing between the Overground (and possible NR) and the tube?  I pass one everyone now and then when changing from the Overground to District at West Brompton, and am never quite sure if I should be tapping it or not.  If I tap and then tap again when I leave the tube have I paid too much if I'm using PAYG, and if I don't tap am I evading a fare?  Or does it have no bearing what I do?

[Deleted]

The pink oyster readers are "route validators". It's more expensive to travel through zone 1, so if you take a route that doesn't take you through zone 1, you should pay less. However, in many cases, if you take a trip from station a to station b, there's no way for the system to know whether you went through zone 1 or not - there's a perfectly logical route through zone 1 and a perfectly logical route that avoids it. The pink route validators let the system know which way you went so that it can charge you appropriately.

[norbitonflyer]

Aug 2, 2015 17:15:09 GMT @forumusernametaken said:

;If I tap and then tap again when I leave the tube have I paid too much if I'm using PAYG, and if I don't tap am I evading a fare?

On the contrary - it should never be more expensive to tap on a pink validator, and will often get you a reduced fare. Example at West Brompton - if you are going from Wimbledon to Highbury & Islington, you might go District and Victoria lines, changing at Victoria or you might change at West Brompton and go "round the top". The System will assume the former, faster, Zone 1 route unless you use the validator to prove you changed at West Brompton. (If you go via Vauxhall, the OSI there will give away you used the TOC route and will charge you acvcordingly)

I don't know what happens if you use the validator and then get back on the District Line.

YOu don't say what your actual journey is, so I don't know if you are being overcharged if you don't tap on the pink validators.

[snoggle]

A couple of other things about pink validators.

If you have a Travelcard season on Oyster that does not include Zone 1 then you will need to touch your Oyster Card on pink route validators where a cheaper non Z1 fare is specified for the journey being made. If you don't touch pink then you will get charged an extension fare via Zone 1. This also applies to people using contactless payment cards where the majority of their trips are avoiding zone 1 and you want the weekly cap to reflect the non Zone 1 journeys.

The other important thing to do, whether using PAYG or with a non Z1 travelcard, is to check the Single Fare Finder (SFF) for the journeys being made. The SFF sets out what the default route is for any given journey and also sets out any alternative routes and the REQUIRED validation touches you have to make and where to make them. Unfortunately there is no simple overriding logic. Sometimes the default route is via a non Zone 1 route and there is no intermediate validation requirement. Other times the default is via Zone 1 with alternatives via non Z1 routes and the requirement to "touch pink" will be specified or else it may specify a specific out of station interchange which also sets the route in the journey history on the card or, for CPCs, in the central system that calculates charges overnight.

TfL have improved the info about pink validators but still do not make it clear that non Z1 Travelcard holders are also in scope of the pink validator rules. I do wonder just how many people are routinely overcharged through not realising the tie up between zones and the SFF routing rules. Before anyone says it - yes it is a pain in the posterior having to check these journeys but I used a Z23 Annual T/Card for several years and never incurred a mischarged extension fare because I made sure I complied with the "touch pink" rules for the journeys. I only incurred one mischarge and that was because I found a bug in the system at Stratford that joined together two journeys despite Stratford not being an OSI.

On the subject of "touch pink" never causing too high a charge then that's not quite correct. The general point is broadly correct but I know of one case where people travelled from SE London to NW London and touched at Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction and were charged via Zone 1 because the system ignored the CJ touch and interpreted the WJ touch as meaning travel on the Bakerloo Line across Zone 1. This is because the card holders touched twice whereas the SFF only specified the CJ pink touch. Now that is probably an unusual "extreme" case but it does show the system can get its knickers in a twist even when people do what the publicity says which is touch on a pink validator if you see one and are avoiding zone 1. Unfortunately the publicity is not quite nuanced enough.

[Deleted]

Interesting, thanks guys! My last journey was Camden Road (Z2) - East Putney (Z2/3) via West Brompton, so by tapping at West Brompton I essentially paid for just zone 2?

Now, where do I pick up my award for Most Ignorance Displayed on a Railway Forum?

[Deleted]

Aug 2, 2015 19:52:06 GMT @forumusernametaken said:

Now, where do I pick up my award for Most Ignorance Displayed on a Railway Forum?

Hate to disappoint(?) you, but you're gonna have to get up a lot, lot earlier in the morning if you want to compete for 2015's coveted MIDRF award (colloquially known as the golden wrong'un).

[spsmiler]

Life sometimes can be very involved. I just checked the SFF and for one journey I found three different route options, all of which are priced differently!

Gants Hill - Walthamstow Central.

The route most people who know no better might think of would be to change at Oxford Circus. This is via zone 1 and is the most expensive route. Peak: £3.90 Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900. Off Peak: £2.80 At all other times including public holidays.

A second possible route is to avoid Zone 1 and travel via Stratford and Highbury & Islington. For this the fares are Peak: £2.40. Off Peak: £1.50. To ensure you are charged the appropriate fare you must touch on the pink card reader if interchanging at Stratford and Highbury & Islington.

A third possible route avoids Zones 1 and 2 via Stratford and Tottenham Hale or via Leytonstone/Leytonstone High Road and Blackhorse Road. Peak: £1.70. Off Peak: £1.50. To ensure you are charged the appropriate fare you must touch on the pink card reader if interchanging at Blackhorse Road.

There are no pink readers for the interchange between the two Leytonstone stations as this is covered by an OSI. Note that despite the distance you must walk between the two Leytonstones - catching a bus will break the OSI and push the fares up.

Simon

[Deleted]

I realise that's an illustrative example, but who would go from Gants Hill to Walthamstow Central (partly) by tube? That's one for the buses, surely??

[norbitonflyer]

Aug 3, 2015 0:07:11 GMT spsmiler said:

Life sometimes can be very involved. I just checked the SFF and for one journey I found three different route options, all of which are priced differently!

You get added complicatons if NR is involved: try Lewisham to Richmond:
via bank/Monumnet (TfL only, via Zone 1)
via Stratford (TfL only, not Zone 1)
via Waterloo (TOC only, via Zone 1)
via Peckham Rye, Tulse Hill and Wimbledon (TOC only, not Zone 1)
via Peckham Rye & Clapham Junction (TOC + TfL, not Zone 1)
via Charing Cross and District Line (TOC+TfL, inc Zone 1)

[Chris M]

Aug 3, 2015 0:13:47 GMT tut said:

I realise that's an illustrative example, but who would go from Gants Hill to Walthamstow Central (partly) by tube? That's one for the buses, surely??

Leaving now, the journey planner gives me the following options for quickest routes

• Central line to Leytonstone then W19 bus (total cost £3.20 peak / £3 off peak)
• Central line to Leytonstone, bus to Leystonstone High Road, Overground (Goblin) to Walthamstow Queen's Road then walk. (total cost £4.90 peak / £4.50 off peak)

Both taking approximately 38 minutes. Walking between stations in Leytonstone adds about 8-10 minutes but reduces the cost to £1.70 peak / £1.50 off peak.


Avoiding buses, it tells me the quickest routes are

• Central line to Liverpool Street then Overground (West Anglia) (total cost: £3.90 peak / £2.80 off peak)
• Central line to Stratford, Greater Anglia to Tottenham Hale, Victoria line to Walthamstow Central (total cost £1.70 peak / £1.50 off peak)

Both taking 44-45 minutes.

A bus only route cannot be done in less than 52-53 minutes:

• 66 to Green Man Roundabout then 257
• 123 to Waterworks Corner then 20

Both routes costing £3 at all times.

[snoggle]

Aug 3, 2015 8:47:55 GMT Chris M said:

Aug 3, 2015 0:13:47 GMT tut said:

I realise that's an illustrative example, but who would go from Gants Hill to Walthamstow Central (partly) by tube? That's one for the buses, surely??

Leaving now, the journey planner gives me the following options for quickest routes

A bus only route cannot be done in less than 52-53 minutes:

• 66 to Green Man Roundabout then 257
• 123 to Waterworks Corner then 20

Both routes costing £3 at all times.

Which just goes to show how clueless the JP is. No one in their right mind would change at Waterworks Corner to the 20 which runs every 15 mins when there is a bus every 5-6 mins at Thorpe Coombe Hospital (212 or 275) or even more frequent services at the Bell Corner. The Thorpe Coombe stop is a same stop change so no walking whereas the Waterworks involves a 5 min quick walk assuming the traffic signals stop in your favour and longer if you're a bit slow and have to wait for the traffic to stop.

The JP will almost certainly add 20 mins (walking time plus waiting time) for that trip using the 123 and 20. That's simply mad. Gants Hill to WW is about 25 mins at most with reasonable traffic and then maybe 12 mins at most to connect at Thorpe Coombe Hospital and then reach WWCS. Journey Planner often adds at least one headway interval for the time to catch a bus and then again for any further bus connection. Now that may well give a worst case journey time but it also misleads people as to what will typically happen allowing for average waiting and travel times.

[norbitonflyer]

Aug 3, 2015 8:47:55 GMT Chris M said:

Aug 3, 2015 0:13:47 GMT tut said:

who would go from Gants Hill to Walthamstow Central (partly) by tube? That's one for the buses, surely??

Leaving now, the journey planner gives me ...............A bus only route cannot be done in less than 52-53 minutes:

Even if you actually need to be delivered right to the door of Walthamstow Central, the timetable for the 123 suggests you it would get you to the north end of Hoe Street in 20-25 minutes from Gants Hill. WWC is about half a mile away - say another ten minutes. Of course, as bus stops are closer together than tube stations, chances are the bus will deliver you closer to your actual destination than the Tube will.

[theblackferret]

A couple of questions spring to mind here:

a) How many people have the time to use the JP correctly & to work out, in conjunction with, Google Earth, bus maps, Mystic Meg's Lottery Numbers etc. what is actually quickest/most direct/cheapest, depending on their priorities? I think this especially applies to the tourist or casual traveller making a leisure/pleasure journey.

b) All the cheaper alternative routes you have severally (nice Shakespearian word from that well-known London arrivista from Stratford-upon-Avon!) come up with seem to involve at least two changes and strike me as going three sides round a square (or two sides round a triangle if you're lucky), every time to get there & save a quid or two. How many people can be bothered with all that?

[snoggle]

Aug 3, 2015 13:51:41 GMT theblackferret said:

A couple of questions spring to mind here:

a) How many people have the time to use the JP correctly & to work out, in conjunction with, Google Earth, bus maps, Mystic Meg's Lottery Numbers etc. what is actually quickest/most direct/cheapest, depending on their priorities? I think this especially applies to the tourist or casual traveller making a leisure/pleasure journey.

b) All the cheaper alternative routes you have severally (nice Shakespearian word from that well-known London arrivista from Stratford-upon-Avon!) come up with seem to involve at least two changes and strike me as going three sides round a square (or two sides round a triangle if you're lucky), every time to get there & save a quid or two. How many people can be bothered with all that?

With respect you're asking the wrong audience. A forum full of enthusiasts is not really representative of the "average punter" who may know their regular commute pretty well and possibly a local bus route or two if they live in London. I suspect normal users of the transport network rely on what the JP tells them no matter how daft some of the results are. They won't second guess the JP's results because they've nothing to compare against. What would be interesting is if, having followed the JP's advice, they would make the journey the same way again or whether their experience was such that they said "never again" and went by car or taxi in future.

In terms of the other routes issue then to be fair the routes are those TfL suggested in the Single Fare Finder. What is more galling is that TfL still insist on some journeys being priced via Zone 1 when there are perfectly adequate, albeit slow, non Zone 1 routes but they refuse to acknowledge their existence. In a network as complex and dense as London's there are very few trips between the outer zones that cannot now be achieved by avoiding zone 1 in some way. That TfL refuses to acknowledge this by providing cheaper priced routes is unacceptable given they sell "unlimited journey" Travelcards but then secretly constrain them via the link to permitted routes in the SFF.

Here's just one example of how daft the whole thing is.

Walthamstow Queens Road - Wandsworth Town. Priced solely via Zone 1. This despite the fact that there is a perfectly acceptable route via Gospel Oak and Clapham Junction with pink validators at both interchange points.

Walthamstow Queens Road - Feltham. Is priced via Zone 1 *but* there are non Z1 alternatives priced via Highbury / Gospel Oak and Richmond. Why do Feltham but not Wandsworth Town?

The same systemic issue of fares from the GOBLIN to points beyond Clapham Junction on Southern / SWT exists all the way along the line even where insisting people travel via Zone 1 is ludicrous because there is no effective way into Zone 1 from certain origin stations. How do you sensibly get from Crouch Hill into Zone 1 using the GOBLIN? You don't. You walk down the road to Finsbury Park and take the tube!

The simple fact is that the Mayor has said he is trying to "bear down" on fares and keep travel costs reasonable for people. You don't do that by also chairing an organisation that is happy to deprive people of perfectly viable, cheaper routes. I suspect that it is not a case of people hunting for cheaper fares but more one of them not even knowing those fares exist nor that there are things they can do fairly simply to lower their travel costs. It is actually TfL's obligation to make sure such things are "shouted from the roof tops" rather than buried away so that people are more likely than not to find them. I think a fair number of people may well be paying way over the odds for their travel and don't understand that they are doing so.

[theblackferret]

Aug 3, 2015 15:47:38 GMT snoggle said:

Aug 3, 2015 13:51:41 GMT theblackferret said:

A couple of questions spring to mind here:

a) How many people have the time to use the JP correctly & to work out, in conjunction with, Google Earth, bus maps, Mystic Meg's Lottery Numbers etc. what is actually quickest/most direct/cheapest, depending on their priorities? I think this especially applies to the tourist or casual traveller making a leisure/pleasure journey.

b) All the cheaper alternative routes you have severally (nice Shakespearian word from that well-known London arrivista from Stratford-upon-Avon!) come up with seem to involve at least two changes and strike me as going three sides round a square (or two sides round a triangle if you're lucky), every time to get there & save a quid or two. How many people can be bothered with all that?

With respect you're asking the wrong audience. A forum full of enthusiasts is not really representative of the "average punter" who may know their regular commute pretty well and possibly a local bus route or two if they live in London. I suspect normal users of the transport network rely on what the JP tells them no matter how daft some of the results are. They won't second guess the JP's results because they've nothing to compare against. What would be interesting is if, having followed the JP's advice, they would make the journey the same way again or whether their experience was such that they said "never again" and went by car or taxi in future.

In terms of the other routes issue then to be fair the routes are those TfL suggested in the Single Fare Finder. What is more galling is that TfL still insist on some journeys being priced via Zone 1 when there are perfectly adequate, albeit slow, non Zone 1 routes but they refuse to acknowledge their existence. In a network as complex and dense as London's there are very few trips between the outer zones that cannot now be achieved by avoiding zone 1 in some way. That TfL refuses to acknowledge this by providing cheaper priced routes is unacceptable given they sell "unlimited journey" Travelcards but then secretly constrain them via the link to permitted routes in the SFF.

Here's just one example of how daft the whole thing is.

Walthamstow Queens Road - Wandsworth Town. Priced solely via Zone 1. This despite the fact that there is a perfectly acceptable route via Gospel Oak and Clapham Junction with pink validators at both interchange points.

Walthamstow Queens Road - Feltham. Is priced via Zone 1 *but* there are non Z1 alternatives priced via Highbury / Gospel Oak and Richmond. Why do Feltham but not Wandsworth Road?

The same systemic issue of fares from the GOBLIN to points beyond Clapham Junction on Southern / SWT exists all the way along the line even where insisting people travel via Zone 1 is ludicrous because there is no effective way into Zone 1 from certain origin stations. How do you sensibly get from Crouch End into Zone 1 using the GOBLIN? You don't. You walk down the road to Finsbury Park and take the tube!

The simple fact is that the Mayor has said he is trying to "bear down" on fares and keep travel costs reasonable for people. You don't do that by also chairing an organisation that is happy to deprive people of perfectly viable, cheaper routes. I suspect that it is not a case of people hunting for cheaper fares but more one of them not even knowing those fares exist nor that there are things they can do fairly simply to lower their travel costs. It is actually TfL's obligation to make sure such things are "shouted from the roof tops" rather than buried away so that people are more likely than not to find them. I think a fair number of people may well be paying way over the odds for their travel and don't understand that they are doing so.

Thanks-that's most interesting & informative-I think you have hit the nail on the head regarding the strong possibility that many travellers are unaware of the cheaper alternative routes, and that these should be much better publicised in the first place.

[spsmiler]

Aug 3, 2015 0:13:47 GMT tut said:

I realise that's an illustrative example, but who would go from Gants Hill to Walthamstow Central (partly) by tube? That's one for the buses, surely??

Probably, depending on actual destination.

However I can read books and magazines whilst travelling on trains - on buses (especially if travelling upstairs) if I spend more than a few minutes reading anything I start to experience travel sickness. Even on a humble London diesel bus, on route 123!

This is not a journey which I have actually made, but I am thinking of going to Walthamstow, to see the sights, etc.

Simon

[Deleted]

FWIW, I'm more likely to do a journey on the tube, as well - for the same reasons I'm on this forum. It just so happens that during the last strike, I ended up going from Turnpike Lane to Gants Hill on the 123, which calls at Tottenham Hale and Blackhorse Road and a few bus stops in Walthamstow (though not actually Walthamstow Central tube station itself). Anyway, it was just that the idea of going all the way in to Oxford Circus and then coming all the way back out again - just to get from Gants Hill to Walthamstow - struck me as the perverse man's perversity in particular

[spsmiler]

Aug 4, 2015 23:02:32 GMT tut said:

FWIW, I'm more likely to do a journey on the tube, as well - for the same reasons I'm on this forum. It just so happens that during the last strike, I ended up going from Turnpike Lane to Gants Hill on the 123, which calls at Tottenham Hale and Blackhorse Road and a few bus stops in Walthamstow (though not actually Walthamstow Central tube station itself). Anyway, it was just that the idea of going all the way in to Oxford Circus and then coming all the way back out again - just to get from Gants Hill to Walthamstow - struck me as the perverse man's perversity in particular

Some years ago I attended a college course which was close to Blackhorse Road station, and travelled both ways on the 123. In those days I lived in Cranbrook Road and could see the bus stops which i used from the house windows. Its also why I found out about the travel sickness.

I was speaking to my mother today about travelling in London and it seems that she would travel via Oxford Circus. Apart from the line into Liverpool Street (which she knows as a route which has green trains - the Class 306 trains were green when introduced after the war!) she has no idea about mainline services. However as she now has a freedom pass so she does not need to consider journey costs or pink oyster readers.

simon

[peterc]

I'm glad that it's not just me who can't read on buses!

I remember travelling to school either on green 306 or, joy of joys for a group of 12 year old boys, we had a compartment to ourselves on a 302 or 308.

[stapler]

In fact the 123 is better for seeing the sights of Walthamstow than the Tube, as it stops outside the William Morris Gallery, and alighting at the Town Hall takes you straight up Hurst Rd into the Village and to the Vestry House Museum.

[Deleted]

Interesting stuff. How clever are the pink readers? (I'm not proposing to exploit the system with this, purely hypothetical!)

I'm planning to see friends in West Hampstead later, travelling from East Putney. If I do EP - West Brompton (tap the pink) and continue on the Overground to WH, I've paid for just zone 2. What if I did EP - WB (tapped the pink), but got back on the District to Westminster and use the tube for the entire journey. From Westminster I travel to WH on the Jubilee, thus going through Z1 but not tapping out until Z2. Will it figure as I tapped in and out of a tube station I inevitably went through Z1 and charge me accordingly, or would my cheeky tap of the pink reader at WB ensure I just pay for Z2?

[Deleted]

I may be wrong but I think it would charge you for Z2 only because you have tapped the pink reader.

[Deleted]

Aug 7, 2015 14:44:27 GMT @forumusernametaken said:

Interesting stuff. How clever are the pink readers? (I'm not proposing to exploit the system with this, purely hypothetical!)

I'm planning to see friends in West Hampstead later, travelling from East Putney. If I do EP - West Brompton (tap the pink) and continue on the Overground to WH, I've paid for just zone 2. What if I did EP - WB (tapped the pink), but got back on the District to Westminster and use the tube for the entire journey. From Westminster I travel to WH on the Jubilee, thus going through Z1 but not tapping out until Z2. Will it figure as I tapped in and out of a tube station I inevitably went through Z1 and charge me accordingly, or would my cheeky tap of the pink reader at WB ensure I just pay for Z2?

The problem here is that West Hampstead is 3 separate stations. If you exit at West Hampstead (Jubilee), you would have had to go via Zone 1, unless you went by an unreasonably long route, say via Rayners Lane.

[norbitonflyer]

I don't think it would charge you only a Z2 fare, because the barrier lines at West Hampstead are different - how would you get from West Brompton to the Jubilee Line barrier at West Hampstead without going through Zone 1*?

Highbury & Islington, however, has a shared barrier line. How does the system know whether you went from West Brompton via Willesden Junction, Victoria, Clapham Junction, or Earls Court and Finsbury Park?


(*well, yes, you could do it via Earls Court, Rayners Lane and Wembley Park, but then you'd be passing through Zones 2-5 inclusive)

[Deleted]

Forget about WH being 3 different stations.