Contactless payment/Apple Pay

[adamskiodp]

Hi folks 

Not sure if in the right place. Please feel free to move. 

If instead of using my PAYG Oyster card, I start a journey by tapping in with Apple Pay, can I tap out using my contactless bank card which is the same one that Apple Pay uses? In case of phone battery dying for example. 

I hope this this makes sense 
thanks,

Adam

[trt]

That's a good question. If I understand it correctly, the system deducts a "full fare" amount from the account, then refunds the difference when the journey is completed. As the journey details cannot be stored on a contactless bank card, the back-haul must pick up the slack and determine where your journey began.
As ApplePay would, I expect, have a different "card" number from the plastic, even though it's the same bank account, so that the bank can differentiate which payment method was used for a transaction, then I expect it would not be able to tie the two taps together and work out where you entered the system.
If it attempted to use the bank account number rather than a number uniquely identifying the plastic, then the system wouldn't be able to process travel for, e.g., a husband and wife with a joint bank account - they both board at Liverpool Street, say, and one exits at Bank, the other at Oxford Street. Who made what journey?

[spsmiler]

I think the charging methodology trt specified is for only Oystercards and not bank credit / debit cards.

For bank cards the system notes your card account number each time you touch it on a ticket gate (or bus, tram, etc) card reader and at the end of the day works out the correct combined fare for the journeys you made (taking into account of possible fares caps) and then makes one financial charge to your bank / credit card account.

re: what happens in the circumstance you asked about, I regret but I am not sure. My initial thought would be that since the ApplePay system would transmit the Apple account number (rather than the account number of the bank account to which it is registered) so if you did as you asked you would be risking two maximum fare charges.

Possibly the Oyster helpline would then refund the excess amount if you contacted them and explained what had happened - I've never (yet) started a journey with one card and ended it with another card so do not have real-world experience to draw upon.

Simon

[rincew1nd]

Does Apple Pay really not work if the device is switched off?

[Deleted]

I'll personally stick with a Contactless credit card kept specifically for travelling purposes - it's the safest way.

[spsmiler]

Oct 1, 2015 19:26:40 GMT @kkc35348 said:

I'll personally stick with a Contactless credit card kept specifically for travelling purposes - it's the safest way.

I would assume that Apple Pay (and its rivals, some of which are yet to be launched here in the UK) do not transmit the credit card data with every transaction, so there should be a greater element of safety against fraudsters reading data packets and using wi-fi to interrogate RFID chips and harvest sensitive banking data.

But from the point of view of minimal chance of hassle (as described by the OP) then yes, your suggestion is optimal. I do something very similar, albeit with the one Oystercard. 

Simon

[adamskiodp]

Thanks for the replies :-)

Adam

[MoreToJack]

If you use ApplePay on your device to touch in you must use the same device to tap out, and for the rest of your daily travel to take advantage of capping. Even if you have the same card, say, on an iPhone, Apple Watch and plastic form, you cannot swap between the devices as each will have a different identifier; the plastic card will be the long number, for ApplePay it is a generated character string that links the payments together.

Unlike an Oyster card no payment is taken when you first (or subsequently) tap in. Each tap is recorded and all are downloaded at the end of the traffic day and linked together; at this point your card will be charged the cheapest rate for the journeys you have made, using any combination of zonal caps and extension fares as appropriate.

When using ApplePay the device (quite obviously) has to be switched on, as it is 'active' rather than 'passive'. The user selects which card they wish to use from the 'Wallet' app and then authenticates via TouchID to transmit the details. As ApplePay can store several payment cards, store cards and loyalty cards (etc) it would be impossible to have the system operate whilst the device is switched off.

Any incomplete journeys or maximum charges on ApplePay (or any other contactless method of payment) can be resolved on the TfL website or over the phone to the Oyster helpline, although experience suggests they won't give you full refunds if you haven't used the system correctly (quite rightly, in my opinion).

[trt]

Oct 2, 2015 13:49:07 GMT MoreToJack said:

Any incomplete journeys or maximum charges on ApplePay (or any other contactless method of payment) can be resolved on the TfL website or over the phone to the Oyster helpline, although experience suggests they won't give you full refunds if you haven't used the system correctly (quite rightly, in my opinion).

Yes, but if you go more than 6 stops then there's a good chance that your iPhone battery will have died by the time you reach the exit gate.

[MoreToJack]

Oct 2, 2015 15:30:50 GMT trt said:

Oct 2, 2015 13:49:07 GMT MoreToJack said:

Any incomplete journeys or maximum charges on ApplePay (or any other contactless method of payment) can be resolved on the TfL website or over the phone to the Oyster helpline, although experience suggests they won't give you full refunds if you haven't used the system correctly (quite rightly, in my opinion).

Yes, but if you go more than 6 stops then there's a good chance that your iPhone battery will have died by the time you reach the exit gate.

Then that's down to the user not ensuring that their device has enough charge to last the journey. Most people seem to be aware of this, and I have had only one person use the "battery flat" excuse since ApplePay was rolled out.

If you can't take control and ensure that you have a valid payment method (a dead phone is not valid) then you deserve a penalty fare.

[spsmiler]

I suppose that people can switch the device off after touching in and switch it on again before touching out.

However, what hassle...

Its great (for those who want to) to be able to use all these fancy technological capabilities, but sometimes the best solution involves the acronym KISS. Keep it simple stupid. That way there is less to go wrong!

Maybe an idea which is just as innovative (for those who want innovation) but less likely to cause hassle is to look at something like bPay wristband or key fob. Of course the same restrictions apply with respect of using the same device at all times, but there is not the same reliance on high tech devices that use low power batteries.

Simon

[rincew1nd]

I must to not understanding how ApplePay works; I hadn't realised the variety of cards that could be registered, which then necessitates being able to switch between which card is simulated. The omission seems to be the inability for the device to retain memory of whichever card it's pretending to be when the battery dies. If the device is simply a reference number, then why can't it still be interrogated to yield that number when turned off? Oyster/Contactless manage it!

[MoreToJack]

Oct 2, 2015 23:26:02 GMT rincew1nd said:

I must to not understanding how ApplePay works; I hadn't realised the variety of cards that could be registered, which then necessitates being able to switch between which card is simulated. The omission seems to be the inability for the device to retain memory of whichever card it's pretending to be when the battery dies. If the device is simply a reference number, then why can't it still be interrogated to yield that number when turned off? Oyster/Contactless manage it!

It's because of the underlying technology that allows ApplePay to work. It will only transmit the details when the card is selected and then authorised (via TouchID or passcode), and then only for a short period of time. The technology in Oyster/Contactless (and bPay etc) is sufficiently different to that in ApplePay to mean that they don't work in the same way.

If you choose to use ApplePay for 'convenience' (I've yet to see someone get through on the first attempt, nor any quicker than an Oyster user...) then you sign up to this restriction.

[kesmet]

TfL have at least put all of this information online:

Apple Pay


The 'convenience' over Oyster is that there's no topping up, which is helpful. That said, the first few times I tried Apple Pay on TfL it didn't work at all.
Personally, I find contactless and Apple Pay to be about the same amount of time to touch in/out, but that Oyster is noticeably faster.

[paulsw2]

Oct 2, 2015 23:26:02 GMT rincew1nd said:

I must to not understanding how ApplePay works; I hadn't realised the variety of cards that could be registered, which then necessitates being able to switch between which card is simulated. The omission seems to be the inability for the device to retain memory of whichever card it's pretending to be when the battery dies. If the device is simply a reference number, then why can't it still be interrogated to yield that number when turned off? Oyster/Contactless manage it!

As a user of Apple Pay on NR my iPhone has 3 cards loaded into the app it will use 1 particular card as the default if I require to use another card I have to select it

[Deleted]

It's too fiddly to use, imagine in the morning rush hour trying to open your app and touch it onto the gate correctly amongst a rush hour crowd - not too convenient.
You also need both hands free, which means added inconvenience - it's just a gimmick for these Iphone fans to play with!

[Dom K]

I've used Apple Pay. You don't have to open the app. Double tap the home button and there you go

[stuartroy]

How does Apple Pay work in the event of an on-train ticket inspection? Oyster cards carry (so I understand) a trace of having been touched in, but the Apple Pay doesn't.

[jswallow]

Nowadays ... It should work in exactly the same way as other regular contactless payment cards. The revenue inspector scans the credit card/iPhone/Watch, and doesn't get any sort of confirmation as to whether the card is valid at that point - it's then reconciled later by the main computers and if a touch-in hasn't been registered for that card on the journey in question, then a penalty fare is charged.

Some of the inspectors still had older readers (don't know if that's still the case now) - in those cases the ticket machine produced a list of contactless cards used on that trip (with only part of the card number for security) and it was a manual check of the card against the list.

Or even ... the revenue inspector does what they did last time they boarded on a bus I was a passenger on - I showed my iPhone, get it ready so they can scan it, they just say "that's fine" and don't even bother scanning it.

[stuartroy]

Thanks - I hadn't realised it would be legal for an unpaid fare challenge to be made other than in person and at the time of the offence by the inspector. Presumably they can only try to fine you, not prosecute you for non-payment, as the credit card company would presumably not release your contact details (no pun intended)? Not planning on putting this to the test, by the way, just interested!

[trt]

I think it may be part of some T&Cs that you accept the payment being taken. I don't think you'd be charged a "penalty fare" of the £20-40 variety if you were ApplePay inspected on the tube/train, just charged some kind of weird medianised high fare which might be higher than you would have paid had you tapped in correctly.

[paulsw2]

I have had my iPhone checked whilst on a Thameslink train heading towards Sutton I was told to press the home button twice as usual to activate the app it recognises if the card has been tapped in or not it won't say an amount as it totals up at end of day (to enable capping etc)

[trt]

Must have a live link to the backend then.