Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2015 21:17:28 GMT
Hello. I have a couple of questions about zoning and Oyster acceptance on the GWML. I know that (eventually) Crossrail will be arriving, and these changes will be there once it does, but I'm cursious as to when they will. 1) I know that they will be coming through to Reading, but will the Windsor, Marlow and Henley branch lines be included as well? 2) If so, will the stations have gates? (I know that once Crossrail arrives, all stations on the mainline will) 3) When will Oysters be accepted up to Reading? 4) What zones will each station be up to Reading? Apologies if it's more than a handful of questions, but tried to research myself, to no avail. Thanks.  |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 24, 2015 22:26:29 GMT
Hello. I have a couple of questions about zoning and Oyster acceptance on the GWML. I know that (eventually) Crossrail will be arriving, and these changes will be there once it does, but I'm cursious as to when they will. 1) I know that they will be coming through to Reading, but will the Windsor, Marlow and Henley branch lines be included as well? 2) If so, will the stations have gates? (I know that once Crossrail arrives, all stations on the mainline will) 3) When will Oysters be accepted up to Reading? 4) What zones will each station be up to Reading? Apologies if it's more than a handful of questions, but tried to research myself, to no avail. Thanks. It is far too early to know the answers to those questions. Something similar has been asked on another forum with reference to Heathrow fares on Crossrail. All we know is that *in principle* TfL fares and ticketing will be extended to Reading when Crossrail services reach there. However that does NOT mean TfL will take over fare setting for Reading. We have the existing situation where the major TOC prices places like Shenfield and Watford Junction. The Shenfield situation was forced on TfL by the DfT. There are also several conditions on fares that TfL were required to accept under the Crossrail Agreement. Unfortunately the public copy of that agreement has all the detail redacted (blacked out) so no detail is available. It was clear in the TfL advice document to the Mayor for the West Anglia fare changes that TfL cannot undercut TOC fares or do anything that would create anomolies on a main line route. Crossrail clearly falls within those restriction for both eastern and western branches. Oyster has to be made much more flexible, using the new back room system, before it can be extended as far as Reading. There are far too many stations on the route that are way beyond the existing fare zones that Oyster is currently able to recognise. There are also related implications about how SWT and FGW implement ITSO ticketing and whether the new SWT franchise will require Oyster to operate on the Waterloo to Reading route. If it does then there are interesting issues about how fares are set and charged. All I can say is that there has been a team of people considering Crossrail ticketing matters for many years. I once fell across some papers - the content of which I've forgotten - but it showed that a lot of thought was being given to all of the issues related to ticketing on the new service. I suspect that as we get closer to the service starting then more and more issues will emerge to keep people busy. |
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Ben
fotopic... whats that?
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Post by Ben on Nov 25, 2015 0:04:20 GMT
Perhaps now that computer systems are doing the back office stuff we should abandon the zonal fares structure and go back to a distance based one. Or even a time based one, or some hybrid sort.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2015 0:44:39 GMT
Hello. I have a couple of questions about zoning and Oyster acceptance on the GWML. I know that (eventually) Crossrail will be arriving, and these changes will be there once it does, but I'm cursious as to when they will. 1) I know that they will be coming through to Reading, but will the Windsor, Marlow and Henley branch lines be included as well? 2) If so, will the stations have gates? (I know that once Crossrail arrives, all stations on the mainline will) 3) When will Oysters be accepted up to Reading? 4) What zones will each station be up to Reading? Apologies if it's more than a handful of questions, but tried to research myself, to no avail. Thanks. It is far too early to know the answers to those questions. Something similar has been asked on another forum with reference to Heathrow fares on Crossrail. All we know is that *in principle* TfL fares and ticketing will be extended to Reading when Crossrail services reach there. However that does NOT mean TfL will take over fare setting for Reading. We have the existing situation where the major TOC prices places like Shenfield and Watford Junction. The Shenfield situation was forced on TfL by the DfT. There are also several conditions on fares that TfL were required to accept under the Crossrail Agreement. Unfortunately the public copy of that agreement has all the detail redacted (blacked out) so no detail is available. It was clear in the TfL advice document to the Mayor for the West Anglia fare changes that TfL cannot undercut TOC fares or do anything that would create anomolies on a main line route. Crossrail clearly falls within those restriction for both eastern and western branches. Oyster has to be made much more flexible, using the new back room system, before it can be extended as far as Reading. There are far too many stations on the route that are way beyond the existing fare zones that Oyster is currently able to recognise. There are also related implications about how SWT and FGW implement ITSO ticketing and whether the new SWT franchise will require Oyster to operate on the Waterloo to Reading route. If it does then there are interesting issues about how fares are set and charged. All I can say is that there has been a team of people considering Crossrail ticketing matters for many years. I once fell across some papers - the content of which I've forgotten - but it showed that a lot of thought was being given to all of the issues related to ticketing on the new service. I suspect that as we get closer to the service starting then more and more issues will emerge to keep people busy. Thanks for your explanation. Going back to my questions now, I too think it's a bit too early to ask them.  But on the other hand, Crossrail is just around the corner compared to when planning was just approved. I really do hope they come up with a good solution to this, and not at the last minute. |
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Post by dmncf on Nov 27, 2015 13:00:46 GMT
It is far too early to know the answers to those questions. Something similar has been asked on another forum with reference to Heathrow fares on Crossrail. ... I do feel that Oyster acceptance on Heathrow Connect to Heathrow Airport (inside Greater London) is now overdue, when you consider that Oyster is now accepted to Gatwick Airport (outside Greater London). |
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Post by stapler on Nov 27, 2015 13:26:14 GMT
Yes, I used to think that about Red Rovers on the special coaches from the Air Terminal to Heathrow!
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Post by snoggle on Nov 27, 2015 23:45:03 GMT
It is far too early to know the answers to those questions. Something similar has been asked on another forum with reference to Heathrow fares on Crossrail. ... I do feel that Oyster acceptance on Heathrow Connect to Heathrow Airport (inside Greater London) is now overdue, when you consider that Oyster is now accepted to Gatwick Airport (outside Greater London). Acceptance on Heathrow Connect was planned several years ago but the proposal collapsed for some reason and hasn't been brought back to life. Oyster to Gatwick only applies from Jan 2016 and it's not yet clear how the practicalities will work (lots of speculation though). |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2015 12:14:53 GMT
I'm going to gatwick on 9th of Jan and I'm praying oyster gets accepted before then.
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Post by phil on Nov 28, 2015 12:54:45 GMT
I'm going to gatwick on 9th of Jan and I'm praying oyster gets accepted before then. Please note that it is on record that the extension of Oyster to Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords, Horley & Gatwick Airport will not replace the current fare structure - it will be overlayed onto it. As such Oyster will actually be more expensive than some of the other fares available - particularly if it gets accepted on Gatwick Express branded services which are planned to keep their more expensive surcharge. With regard to the GWML it is quite possible that a similar situation will persist and that if people want the cheapest ticket from the likes of Twyford or Reading say, then they may find paper tickets are the way to go. |
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 28, 2015 13:31:55 GMT
It is far too early to know the answers to those questions. Something similar has been asked on another forum with reference to Heathrow fares on Crossrail. ... I do feel that Oyster acceptance on Heathrow Connect to Heathrow Airport (inside Greater London) is now overdue, when you consider that Oyster is now accepted to Gatwick Airport (outside Greater London). But at an additional cost for Gatwick. |
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 28, 2015 13:34:42 GMT
I do feel that Oyster acceptance on Heathrow Connect to Heathrow Airport (inside Greater London) is now overdue, when you consider that Oyster is now accepted to Gatwick Airport (outside Greater London). Acceptance on Heathrow Connect was planned several years ago but the proposal collapsed for some reason and hasn't been brought back to life. Oyster to Gatwick only applies from Jan 2016 and it's not yet clear how the practicalities will work (lots of speculation though). They don't want ticket gates at Heathrow on the Express/Connect platforms. |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 28, 2015 15:03:16 GMT
They don't want ticket gates at Heathrow on the Express/Connect platforms. Part of ther problem is that it acts a s a free inter-terminal shuttle. If you could add gates, charging a special fare wouldn't be a problem - as has been pointed out, there are several special fares on Oyster already - Stratford Int, Gatwick, etc |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2015 15:12:11 GMT
Also it's a free interchange on the Pic line between terminals at Heathrow when using oyster.
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 28, 2015 18:03:48 GMT
They don't want ticket gates at Heathrow on the Express/Connect platforms. Part of ther problem is that it acts a s a free inter-terminal shuttle. If you could add gates, charging a special fare wouldn't be a problem - as has been pointed out, there are several special fares on Oyster already - Stratford Int, Gatwick, etc Heathrow Airport Limited have stated they won't have gates. It's their land and services. So until money talks it won't happen. |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 28, 2015 20:07:17 GMT
Part of ther problem is that it acts a s a free inter-terminal shuttle. If you could add gates, charging a special fare wouldn't be a problem - as has been pointed out, there are several special fares on Oyster already - Stratford Int, Gatwick, etc Heathrow Airport Limited have stated they won't have gates. It's their land and services. So until money talks it won't happen. Well that's going to be interesting when Crossrail starts running. I assume validators will be installed instead and the "standard fare" will be vastly increased to reflect the higher fare. |
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londoner
thinking on '73 stock
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Post by londoner on Nov 28, 2015 23:07:13 GMT
I'm going to gatwick on 9th of Jan and I'm praying oyster gets accepted before then. The last time I went to Gatwick a couple of months ago, we went via Clapham Junction and West Brompton via the overground. We brought a rail ticket from Gatwick to East Croydon, exited Croydon, and then re-entered the station with our Oyster card's. This saved us a bit of money. Paul |
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Post by spsmiler on Nov 29, 2015 0:01:53 GMT
Also it's a free interchange on the Pic line between terminals at Heathrow when using oyster. really? I wish that I had known this! Simon |
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Post by snoggle on Nov 29, 2015 10:57:29 GMT
I'm going to gatwick on 9th of Jan and I'm praying oyster gets accepted before then. TfL's 2016 Fares web page has some info at the moment but says "Gatwick is later in Jan" whatever that means. TfL have said they will update fares info on 2 Dec so need to keep checking. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 29, 2015 11:53:04 GMT
I maybe wrong about the free interchange.
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 29, 2015 13:18:15 GMT
I maybe wrong about the free interchange. You're not - if you touch it at the Picadilly Line entrance at any of T123, T4 or T5, and touch out at any of the same three stations, you get a nil charge. Bizarrly and annoyingly you will get charged if you touch in or out at Hatton Cross, despite it being part of the bus " Freezone". You can pass through HX on your way from T123 or T5 to T4. |
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Post by crusty54 on Nov 29, 2015 14:36:53 GMT
The Gatwick Express Oyster fare will be £19.80. The other peak fare will be £14 and off peak £8.
Guess something similar could apply for Heathrow.
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Post by stapler on Nov 29, 2015 14:39:42 GMT
Presumably they will configure the oyster readers guarding the exits/entrance to G ex at Victoria to deduct that higher (and extortionate) fare, but not the others?
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Post by rail2210 on Nov 30, 2015 17:05:33 GMT
If going from Heathrow Airport Terminal 4 to Terminal 5 is it quicker to get the free shuttle train to Heathrow Central then the Express to T5? Or is the 490 quicker?
As the 490 just seems to take endless turns off the perimeter road to serve stops.
The barriers on the Gatwick Express platforms at Victoria currently do not have oyster readers, just the ones for the Go Ahead smartcard. So those could possibly be adapted to accept oyster at the higher fare.
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Post by phil on Dec 1, 2015 16:12:51 GMT
The Gatwick Express Oyster fare will be £19.80. The other peak fare will be £14 and off peak £8. Guess something similar could apply for Heathrow. Quite possibly In other words rip off air travellers by selling Oyster cards while in air en route to the UK and don't mention that unlike Oyster journeys in TfL land, using Oyster guarantees the most expensive, not the cheapest fare. |
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Post by spsmiler on Dec 1, 2015 23:58:44 GMT
A £12 Visitor Oystercard won't be enough for some journeys.
Simon
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Post by stapler on Dec 2, 2015 10:10:12 GMT
The website now reads
From early 2016, you will be able to use pay as you go between Merstham and Gatwick Airport and on Gatwick Express between Victoria and Gatwick Airport.
Does this mean that the only Oyster fare offered will be by the GEX, and Oyster will NOT be available on ordinary Govia services between Gatwick and London? Or if it is, that the GEX fare will be charged anyway?
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Post by phil on Dec 2, 2015 19:01:46 GMT
See Crusty54s post above. The Gatwick Express fares are shown here www.gatwickexpress.com/en/tickets-and-fares/buy-online-and-saveAs you can see £19.90 is the current walk up single adult ticket price (though if you book online it drops to £17.70) and all statements thus far indicate this is what will be charged if you use Oyster to / from Gatwick. The Thameslink fare to Blackfriars (in the peaks) is £10.20, The Southern fare to Victoria (in the peaks) is £15.30 Please remember that the Government will only accept the extension of Oyster onto non-TfL provided rail services provided that:- (1) It does not alter the profit / costs / subsidy profile of any current franchises. (2) it does alter the nature of the franchise such that when the franchise is re-let the profit / costs / subsidy profile change significantly. This is why fares from Shenfield and Reading remain in the hands of the GA and FGW franchises respectively and is also why Watford junction (fares set by LM & Virgin) is outside the traditional 1-6 zonal structure. As such there have been plenty warning given that unlike when Oyster is applied to rail services within the traditional 1-6 zonal structure, rail fares will NOT go down. In the case of Gatwick the Government are on record as saying Oyster fares to the airport will not be the cheapest option and lower fare paper tickets will continue to be available. Its also worth remembering that its Gatwick Airport themselves who are the ones pushing for Oyster to be extended there, because:- (1) Provides parity with Heathrow Airport (who will accept Oyster once Crossrail is up and running) (2) Makes things 'easy' for airline travellers who can then be sold an Oyster card on board planes and be told that it also includes travel into Central London. The reason for extending Oyster to Merstham, Redhill, Earlswood, Salfords and Horley is more of an enabling measure and a gesture to Surrey CC who indicated they would not best pleased if Gatwick (which is in West Sussex) got Oyster acceptance and they did not. Fares from these stations are expected to be the same as the current standard walk up paper ticket prices - again frequent travellers may well find some for of season ticket cheaper. As these stations are not served by Gatwick express owever, fares using Oyster will be more reasonable if you can prove you sued this route - if you got off and touched out / in at Redhill on the way to or from Gatwick say, then you would presumably be charged the cheaper Southern fare to / from Victoria. So my advice to anyone on here DON'T USE OYSTER TO GATWICK - you will pay way more than you need to for the privilege. Rather pre-book paper tickets from East Croydon / Purley / etc to Gatwick, pick them up from your local station ticket machine or get them posted to you and then use Oyster to get to East Croydon / Purley /etc. where your paper ticket takes over. |
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Post by stapler on Dec 2, 2015 22:17:49 GMT
I am very surprised Surrey County Council are that on the ball......
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Post by phil on Dec 3, 2015 17:36:38 GMT
I am very surprised Surrey County Council are that on the ball...... They are not in general - however it wouldn't have played well with the councils electorate if passengers from West Sussex (which doesn't even touch the GLA area) got Oyster (even if it is the most expensive fare available) while Surrey did not. However thats not to say Surrey CC are the deciding reason why Merstham - Horley are getting Oyster acceptance - there are many other factors at play here.... the attitude of the DfT being a particularly important factor. |
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Post by snoggle on Dec 3, 2015 20:31:15 GMT
I am very surprised Surrey County Council are that on the ball...... Well they didn't appear clueless when their reps sat in front of the London Assembly Transport Committee. They may have modest aspirations but I suspect that's borne out of not wanting to fork out any money. They're also paying attention to just where Crossrail 2 will run to and what benefits may flow from that. I think there's a general recognition that Oyster, while not a panacea, has been pretty transformative in Greater London in terms of offering a conveninent method of payment and access to daily caps. |
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