Unusual moves and rostering drivers to them.

[Tomcakes]

As an occasional user of the 06.57 w/b Picc from King's Cross, which reverses EB>WB, I've noticed that it can have 2 or 3 members of staff in the cab. I assume that these are trainees, or staff refreshing their knowledge, on a crossover scheduled to be used twice (?) per week on a Sunday morning.

Are t/ops actively scheduled to 'double up' on these turns, does somebody identify them so that everybody gets a chance to go over the crossovers etc? What happens if the member of staff has gone past the prescribed period without going over said crossover - can they continue duties, but refuse to go over the crossover without an escort? Could they go ahead if they felt confident in their knowledge of it anyway, or it a strict no-no?

(Some of the arrangements of these two particular trains can leave something to be desired. A few years ago it seemed practice for a PA to be made on the westbound platform to advise passengers that the first w/b train was on the e/b platform, and PAs to be made on the e/b platform to advise that the train was to Heathrow. These appear to have ceased so passengers either go the wrong way or are kept waiting on the w/b platform! Another station assistant attempted to prevent me and others from boarding the train, saying that it was for staff use only - fortunately quickly overruled by the train operator).

[North End]

Dec 13, 2015 20:41:42 GMT Tomcakes said:

As an occasional user of the 06.57 w/b Picc from King's Cross, which reverses EB>WB, I've noticed that it can have 2 or 3 members of staff in the cab. I assume that these are trainees, or staff refreshing their knowledge, on a crossover scheduled to be used twice (?) per week on a Sunday morning.

Are t/ops actively scheduled to 'double up' on these turns, does somebody identify them so that everybody gets a chance to go over the crossovers etc? What happens if the member of staff has gone past the prescribed period without going over said crossover - can they continue duties, but refuse to go over the crossover without an escort? Could they go ahead if they felt confident in their knowledge of it anyway, or it a strict no-no?

(Some of the arrangements of these two particular trains can leave something to be desired. A few years ago it seemed practice for a PA to be made on the westbound platform to advise passengers that the first w/b train was on the e/b platform, and PAs to be made on the e/b platform to advise that the train was to Heathrow. These appear to have ceased so passengers either go the wrong way or are kept waiting on the w/b platform! Another station assistant attempted to prevent me and others from boarding the train, saying that it was for staff use only - fortunately quickly overruled by the train operator).

I can't think of any reason why more than one driver would be *required*.

There is the possibility that Instructor Operators could request that duty to do the move with a trainee, although I wouldn't expect that to happen every week.

Being the first train, it could be used as a means of taking Train Operators, or other staff to work? First trains can quite often be frequented by, for example, operational managers on their way to their office. This is quite permissible, as it's in the execution of duty.

Drivers that follow the roster will do every (timetabled) move covered by their depot at least once per roster cycle. This doesn't guarantee that every move on the line is covered, as not every move is timetabled, and not every timetabled move is covered by every depot. However the requirements for trainees can be different. For example, on the Northern Line only Golders Green drivers are booked to use Edgware Depot, however a trainee from every depot *should* know how to do it as part of their road training. (Even if subsequently they don't then cover it for years and need a pilot when they do have to do it!). :-)

[rheostar]

If there were three people in the cab, then it's probably the driver, an instructor operator and a trainee.

Two trains reverse east to west on a Sunday morning. The IO and trainee join the train at Northfields or Acton Town and with the rostered driver, work it up to Kings Cross and reverse east and west. The IO and trainee leave the train at Russell Square westbound and pick up the second KX reverser on the east. This way the trainee gets two trips over the reversing point.

[superteacher]

Some moves on certain lines are so rare, there are drivers who have probably never done them. I am aware that DVD's / videos are produced fir certain moves that don't occur in normal day to day operation. But surely, if you follow the signals, there isn't a massive amount that can go wrong.

For example, how many Central line drivers have done Northolt EB to WB via main line shunt?

[North End]

Dec 19, 2015 12:08:40 GMT superteacher said:

Some moves on certain lines are so rare, there are drivers who have probably never done them. I am aware that DVD's / videos are produced fir certain moves that don't occur in normal day to day operation. But surely, if you follow the signals, there isn't a massive amount that can go wrong.

For example, how many Central line drivers have done Northolt EB to WB via main line shunt?

It depends. Some moves are naturally easier than others.

The consequences of a mistake can vary. Stop in the wrong place and change ends and it will cause a delay. Miss a signal you didn't know was there and that's a SPAD. Likewise if you don't know the speed then you could go too fast and potentially cause a derailment.

What about if there's an unexpected failure and the simple move you thought you were doing then turns into something more complex? Again greater potential for delays, and more importantly for mistakes to occur.

The above list is by no means exhaustive. A certain amount of common sense applies, for example a driver might be happy doing an unfamiliar basic move after a quick refresh of their Line Knowledge Book. But for a more complex move, like going into a depot, this is not sufficient in my view.

Generally speaking, a driver should never be in the position where they're doing something they're not comfortable with.

[Deleted]

Dec 19, 2015 12:08:40 GMT superteacher said:

I am aware that DVD's / videos are produced fir certain moves that don't occur in normal day to day operation. But surely, if you follow the signals, there isn't a massive amount that can go wrong.

There was that story aslefshrugged once told over here:

Mar 30, 2014 12:50:00 GMT aslefshrugged said:

The "limit of shunt" board in the WB tunnel at Liverpool Street is easy to miss, its on the right where all the others are on the left. A few years ago we had a similar shutdown and one TOp didn't stop until they got to Bank.

[superteacher]

Are the limi of shunt moves on the Central not controlled by ATP to prevent a T Op from going too far?

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2015 10:53:33 GMT superteacher said:

Are the limi of shunt moves on the Central not controlled by ATP to prevent a T Op from going too far?

No, I don't think so. The limit of shunt isn't part of the signalling and it doesn't denote the end of a block. So, I mean, it's no different to the way the limit of shunt isn't a signal and isn't provided with a trainstop on manually driven lines. I mean, there was obviously no train ahead, nothing to stop the train continuing safely to Bank, the road's clear, so as far as the signalling's concerned, there's no issue.

In any case, the only way to have the ATP force a train to stop at the limit of shunt would be to treat it like a semi-auto and hold it at danger for the shunt move. (Block marker boards can be semi-autos too, although it's a bit of a metaphor to talk of them being held at danger). Cause otherwise I'm not sure how you could set a target speed of zero at the limit of shunt. And this is just not really worth it and has never been the purpose of a limit of shunt.

The signalling grants you authority to enter the block. If you need to stop at some point before the end of the block, that's up to you. So it's much the same as with stations. Signalling doesn't generally enforce station calls, although there are locations on manually driven lines where station starters are held at danger, but that's for signal overlaps, rather than to enforce station stops.

Things may, however, be different under TBTC with its movement authorities, but that's a very different signalling logic.

[class411]

I have to ask:

What exactly is a 'limit of shunt'.

I'd always assumed, from context (and the literal meaning of the words) that it was something that told drivers how far they could reverse without interfering with some other section of track.

But that does not seem to be the case in some of the instances mentioned here.

I think the simplest way to ask the question is: What it an LOS intended to prevent?

[superteacher]

Dec 20, 2015 16:59:44 GMT class411 said:

I have to ask:

What exactly is a 'limit of shunt'.

I'd always assumed, from context (and the literal meaning of the words) that it was something that told drivers how far they could reverse without interfering with some other section of track.

But that does not seem to be the case in some of the instances mentioned here.

I think the simplest way to ask the question is: What it an LOS intended to prevent?

If a train pulls right up to the limit of shunt, the rear of the train will be beyond the signal controlling the shunt at the other end. It also acts as a warning, because if the train proceeds too far beyond the LOS, the signal behind mat clear. If the driver then changes end, there would be the potential for a collision.

[class411]

Dec 20, 2015 17:04:48 GMT superteacher said:

Dec 20, 2015 16:59:44 GMT class411 said:

I have to ask:

What exactly is a 'limit of shunt'.

I'd always assumed, from context (and the literal meaning of the words) that it was something that told drivers how far they could reverse without interfering with some other section of track.

But that does not seem to be the case in some of the instances mentioned here.

I think the simplest way to ask the question is: What it an LOS intended to prevent?

If a train pulls right up to the limit of shunt, the rear of the train will be beyond the signal controlling the shunt at the other end. It also acts as a warning, because if the train proceeds too far beyond the LOS, the signal behind mat clear. If the driver then changes end, there would be the potential for a collision.

So an 'LOS' is something that can only be used when either:

1) All trains are the same length,

or

2) The LOS is positioned for the shortest train,

or

3) There are multiple LOS indications each applicable to a certain train length?

Forgive my slowness, here, but one of the reasons I had problems inferring the meaning was that I'd always assumed that 'shunting', was something that would necessarily happen on areas of track not controlled by track circuits. (Hence my assumption that it was some sort of reversing limit to stop a train backing onto an area that was controlled by track circuits.)

[superteacher]

Dec 20, 2015 17:28:44 GMT class411 said:

Dec 20, 2015 17:04:48 GMT superteacher said:

If a train pulls right up to the limit of shunt, the rear of the train will be beyond the signal controlling the shunt at the other end. It also acts as a warning, because if the train proceeds too far beyond the LOS, the signal behind mat clear. If the driver then changes end, there would be the potential for a collision.

So an 'LOS' is something that can only be used when either:

1) All trains are the same length,

or

2) The LOS is positioned for the shortest train,

or

3) There are multiple LOS indications each applicable to a certain train length?

Forgive my slowness, here, but one of the reasons I had problems inferring the meaning was that I'd always assumed that 'shunting', was something that would necessarily happen on areas of track not controlled by track circuits. (Hence my assumption that it was some sort of reversing limit to stop a train backing onto an area that was controlled by track circuits.)

On lines with trains of different length, the LOS would be positioned to allow the longest train to clear the signal at the rear. A shorter train would also be clear.

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2015 17:55:58 GMT superteacher said:

Dec 20, 2015 17:28:44 GMT class411 said:

So an 'LOS' is something that can only be used when either:

1) All trains are the same length,

or

2) The LOS is positioned for the shortest train,

or

3) There are multiple LOS indications each applicable to a certain train length?

Forgive my slowness, here, but one of the reasons I had problems inferring the meaning was that I'd always assumed that 'shunting', was something that would necessarily happen on areas of track not controlled by track circuits. (Hence my assumption that it was some sort of reversing limit to stop a train backing onto an area that was controlled by track circuits.)

On lines with trains of different length, the LOS would be positioned to allow the longest train to clear the signal at the rear. A shorter train would also be clear.

This is true, but it's common to have stopping marks for each train. So, on the SSR these days, there are lots of S7 stopping diamonds positioned shortly before the actual limit of shunt. The limit of shunt really is the limit, no train that's shunting should proceed past that and it's also the stopping mark for whichever happens to be the longest train. But then you get stopping marks for the shorter trains as well positioned slightly before.

[rincew1nd]

I've always understood Limit of Shunt boards to be different to a Stopping Marks.

Overshooting a stopping mark may well be an inconvenience, but passing a Limit of Shunt without authority is a SPAD and thus has safety implications. The driver who continued to Bank could well have happened upon some engineering plant on the line.

I see a Limit of Shunt as (generally) a stop signal only applicable to some trains, which is why a Fixed Red Light isn't used. If it were a passenger move then a full-blown signal would be needed.

[Deleted]

Dec 20, 2015 18:26:12 GMT rincew1nd said:

I've always understood Limit of Shunt boards to be different to a Stopping Marks.

Overshooting a stopping mark may well be an inconvenience, but passing a Limit of Shunt without authority is a SPAD and thus has safety implications. The driver who continued to Bank could well have happened upon some engineering plant on the line.

I see a Limit of Shunt as (generally) a stop signal only applicable to some trains, which is why a Fixed Red Light isn't used. If it were a passenger move then a full-blown signal would be needed.

On the mainline they use limit of shunt markers where LUL have fixed red lights. So, taking a very simple example, at Streatham Hill there's a limit of shunt board at the country end of the up platform for down direction moves from the up sidings and mainline. But, to my knowledge, LUL always use fixed red lights for such moves. It's also very common on the mainline to have their limit of shunt signals, which are plated LOS but consist of a position light shunt signal with only the two reds on the bottom permanently lit. They can't clear. These are often used for facing shunt moves. So like at Marylebone, you can proceed out of the station in the down direction along the up main line until the limit of shunt for a shunt back into an alternate platform at Marylebone. There aren't many equivalent locations on LU, but I'm sure you'd have a proper fixed red here all linked up with trainstops or ATP.

But where LUL has limit of shunt boards, they are always for right direction moves to my knowledge. So, at Liverpool Street, the LOS is for a mainline shunt over the trailing crossover. So you're gonna head west out of the westbound, stop at the limit of shunt, change ends, and head into the eastbound platform. So the approach to the limit of shunt is right direction. The move, say, from Liverpool Street sidings into the eastbound platform is wrong road and will have a proper fixed red all linked into the signalling. Passing that would be a SPAD. But passing the limit of shunt on the westbound main wouldn't be. The train will be cleared out of Liverpool Street westbound along the westbound main and it'll be cleared up to the next occupied block or signal being held at danger.

I think if there'd been engineering plant on the line, obviously you'd've had to have a proper possession, with all the red lights associated with that. Now passing them without authority is a SPAD. And, again, if there'd been any other trains on the line in blocks ahead, yeah, that'll be picked up by the signalling and the ATP will give you a target speed of 0 for the occupied block and if you enter that block without authority, that's a SPAD.

ATP complicates things a bit, but take traditional signalling. Let's take Dagenham East. So for the mainline shunt move here, FG4 will clear for the mainline shunt move, but it will clear with a straight green - main aspect - and it clears you to A956 - which may or may not be clear, but whatever. The signalling permits you all the way up to A956. That's safe. Pass FG4 at green and there's no SPAD. Now it's up to you to stop at the limit of shunt if you're supposed to shunt back. If you pass the limit of shunt, you've not SPADed, you've not entered an occupied block, there's nothing up ahead for you to hit. But getting you back to FG18 may be a bit of a headache. Now, if for some reason there is a train in rear of A956, or FG4 has failed or something like that and you're given authority to pass signal FG4 at danger and proceed to the limit of shunt only and you carry on past the limit of shunt - that is an issue.

Now it's a different matter at somewhere like Upney. If you're cleared wrong road by the shunt signal into the westbound platform and you pass the FRL at the end of the westbound platform (which could be thought of as a bit like a limit of shunt) then that is a SPAD.

I know of one possible exception to this. So at Harrow-on-the-Hill, JB3, the station starter at platform 1, is the main signal clearing you to JB7 on the northbound main. Beneath JB3 is shunt signal JB92 for the mainline shunt from the northbound main. I would guess that JB92 clears you as far as the limit of shunt only. So the situation at Harrow-on-the-Hill may be a bit different.

This is much more common on the mainline, where it's often possible to set a subsidiary route for a main line shunt move, which I believe clears you only as far as a limit of shunt. I believe these subsidiary routes still require the whole block to be clear, but they have reduced overlaps. But of course you're proceeding here on a clear shunt signal, not a main aspect. So at somewhere like Liverpool Street, or Dagenham East, it's main aspect only on the station starter.

[North End]

Dec 20, 2015 18:26:12 GMT rincew1nd said:

I've always understood Limit of Shunt boards to be different to a Stopping Marks.

Overshooting a stopping mark may well be an inconvenience, but passing a Limit of Shunt without authority is a SPAD and thus has safety implications. The driver who continued to Bank could well have happened upon some engineering plant on the line.

I see a Limit of Shunt as (generally) a stop signal only applicable to some trains, which is why a Fixed Red Light isn't used. If it were a passenger move then a full-blown signal would be needed.

No it's not normally a SPAD to pass a LOS board as they're not normally the end of the signalled move. In that sense the wording is misleading. Indeed, in most cases it won't be a shunt move that takes the train towards the board.

On the mainline it's common to have a LOS board at the end of a shunt move. For example Hertford North platform 1 used to have one at the country end, denoting the end of the shunt move for a train signalled out of the carriage sidings. Pass that and you'd be heading wrong-way down the up line.

On LU not all locations have a board. For example, reversing N-S at Mornington Crescent used to involve stopping at signal E.4 then changing ends. The reversing point could be a semi (as there), which might be held at danger. At some locations the interlocking might be designed so the opposing move couldn't clear with such signal off. Driver's line knowledge comes into play here, knowing where to stop even if the signaller has inadvertently cleared the signal at the end of the reversing berth. At other locations, eg Piccadilly Circus (Bakerloo) the signal at the end of the reversing berth might be a normal auto.

Answering a point raised elsewhere, there may or may not be a signal at the end of the reversing berth. Generally on the Central Line there isn't. TBTC is different, and a reversing move will only get a target point as far as is necessary. The driver still needs to know where to stop though, in case he needs to do the move in RM for some reason. A LOS board is still provided for that reason. Likewise, during failures remote securing may be used, the driver needs some idea what RS1 means, for example.

[North End]

Dec 20, 2015 17:28:44 GMT class411 said:

Dec 20, 2015 17:04:48 GMT superteacher said:

If a train pulls right up to the limit of shunt, the rear of the train will be beyond the signal controlling the shunt at the other end. It also acts as a warning, because if the train proceeds too far beyond the LOS, the signal behind mat clear. If the driver then changes end, there would be the potential for a collision.

So an 'LOS' is something that can only be used when either:

1) All trains are the same length,

or

2) The LOS is positioned for the shortest train,

or

3) There are multiple LOS indications each applicable to a certain train length?

Forgive my slowness, here, but one of the reasons I had problems inferring the meaning was that I'd always assumed that 'shunting', was something that would necessarily happen on areas of track not controlled by track circuits. (Hence my assumption that it was some sort of reversing limit to stop a train backing onto an area that was controlled by track circuits.)

They're normally placed for the longest passenger train. In past times numbered boards were used where different length trains ran, most commonly 4, 7 or 8 depending on the line. Some of these still remain in situ. Such boards were also used in reversing sidings, and in some platforms as stopping marks at places where the diamond was not used.

For engineers trains a reversing berth depends on where signals are placed, generally I wouldn't expect an engineers train to use LOS boards as their primary means of stopping. A short train might need to make sure it draws up to the board to release any route holding apparatus though.

[norbitonflyer]

I would expect that, in the days before continuous track circuits, straying beyond the LOS could take you beyond the track circuited section and make you invisible to the signalling system.

[rincew1nd]

My bad. I guess I'm just used to mainline style and EKT in particular. I hadn't realised that an LU Limit of Shunt is encountered when running under main aspect signals, I was envisaging the NR scenario outlined above by tut.

[Deleted]

Upney also has a trainstop associated with the FRL in the westbound platform

Another one I can think of is the move from Barking Sidings back into the eastbound platform at Barking that also has a FRL and a trainstop

[londoner]

I would say Rayners Lane WB platform, reversing onto EB tracks is a very uncommon move. I recollect being a passenger on that day and seeing lots of people going down onto the platform, expecting to go to Uxbridge and being very confused indeed!

[superteacher]

Dec 22, 2015 1:41:26 GMT londoner said:

I would say Rayners Lane WB platform, reversing onto EB tracks is a very uncommon move. I recollect being a passenger on that day and seeing lots of people going down onto the platform, expecting to go to Uxbridge and being very confused indeed!

Not as uncommon as you may think compared to other moves.

[Deleted]

How common is terminating eastbound Jubilee line trains in the westbound platform at Canary Wharf?

[superteacher]

Dec 24, 2015 14:55:56 GMT @spinba11 said:

How common is terminating eastbound Jubilee line trains in the westbound platform at Canary Wharf?

If ever there is a problem at Stratford, Canary Wharf is often used to reverse trains, as North Greenwich can't cope with all of them.