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Post by arun on Feb 27, 2020 11:15:27 GMT
As the February 11 quiz shows, there can be several devious solutions to say, the connection between quiz pictures. However, it is clear that there is usually only one correct answer scribbled on the quizmaster's crib sheet. Since several of these alternative answers are at least as interesting and informative as the official answer, can some form of constructive credit [say half a point?] be awarded for those that are also correct but not chosen?
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 27, 2020 13:00:55 GMT
There is a major problem with 'odd one out' and 'what links' questions, as was demonstrated in the puzzle involving multiple station names, recently.
It may well be that one of the problem solvers finds a 'better' (however you might define that) link, or exception, to the one thought up by the question setter.
It is particularly unfair when these are set as part of tests or exams.
As an example, which one of these if the odd one out:
DVD
VCR
RADIO
DOG
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Post by arun on Feb 27, 2020 13:08:43 GMT
VCR - Because it is the only one without a letter "D" in it!
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Post by humbug on Feb 27, 2020 13:09:32 GMT
All of them!
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Post by humbug on Feb 27, 2020 13:10:23 GMT
I like DOG best - you play with a dog, the rest you play.
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Post by littlejohn on Feb 27, 2020 13:29:00 GMT
I once offered 2 solutions to an 'odd one out', both of which I thought were better than the official answer, and I would have welcomed some form of recognition. The only time I have actually submitted a correct answer was when the photo featured a house I had once lived in, so I can't really claim any kudos.
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Post by xplaistow on Feb 27, 2020 18:47:13 GMT
There is a major problem with 'odd one out' and 'what links' questions, as was demonstrated in the puzzle involving multiple station names, recently. If you're referring to my Connecting Wall puzzle, I would like to point out that red herring links were supposed to be a key part of it, the idea being that there should only be one complete solution. The problem is that it can be very difficult to check everything to ensure that's the case. |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 27, 2020 21:58:25 GMT
There is a major problem with 'odd one out' and 'what links' questions, as was demonstrated in the puzzle involving multiple station names, recently. If you're referring to my Connecting Wall puzzle, I would like to point out that red herring links were supposed to be a key part of it, the idea being that there should only be one complete solution. The problem is that it can be very difficult to check everything to ensure that's the case. Yes, that was the point I was trying to make. It's very difficult for the setter to think of every possible way the solver will look at the lists, and for the solvers it's very difficult to see into the mind of the setter. I had six different answers for the 4 words I listed above, and yet within ten minutes people had come up with two more. Your idea of having four separate puzzles that had to be solved in a certain way to get the correct solution was a very clever one, but it was still almost impossible to solve - no one managed it without clues. |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 28, 2020 12:59:45 GMT
I (and we) do try to give credit where an alternative answer also fits but isn't the one I thought of, indeed for many years the instructions in the answer file have said:
"If the locations are guessed but the link isn't, the answer photos can be posted.
If some locations are guessed correctly and some aren't, treat each one as you would a single photo for a day - i.e. say which ones are correct and which aren't. Post unmodified/give clues as apropriate.
If answers to the link are given that are true, but not the answer I was looking for say this. If you don't know whether their answer is true, just say it isn't the answer we're looking for."
I don't keep track of the score. About 7 or 8ish years ago I started looking back from the early days to compile a leaderboard but quickly found that there is no obviously fair scoring system as if someone posts an answer that is correct we don't (and can't) know who else arrived at the same answer independently - with or without posting anything in the thread. We don't (and can't) know if an incorrect answer helps someone get to the correct one. We don't know if those getting the right answer have cheated or not (I don't think people do, but it's not impossible). Feel free to develop your own scoring system and apply it to find out how well you are doing if you wish - today is question number 4951.
Note there are some potential spoilers, including for today's question, below
Multiple answers that fit the clues are entirely possible - producing so many questions means I simply don't have the time to think of all possibilities. There have been 724 link questions (including odd one out and fifth in the set ones) between March 2008 and today, 694 authored exclusively by me and another 12 where I've taken someone else's idea as a starting point (and there might be another one tomorrow - I've got an idea but don't know if it fits yet*), most (but not all) of them unique, every month . A very simple one like today's (which involved no modification of photographs) took I'd guess somewhere between about 10-45 minutes to think of the idea, work out suitable locations (see * below). I then spent about 15 minutes choosing which photographs to use (not including the 15-20 minutes working out exactly where image D, photographed from a moving train, was taken earlier in the day) which is probably about average, and another 10 minutes naming them correctly and producing the answer file. Modifying a single photograph takes between about 1-2 minutes (a single station name needs blanking) to several hours (e.g. line drawings). Selecting background photos can be time consuming as well sometimes, especially if I need something that fits in a particular space or features something that wont appear in a file name. Add another 2-5 minutes to upload and about 5 minutes updating the database and you can see it all adds up. A link question probably therefore takes between about 40 minutes and several hours to produce, not including time spent photographing.
*I try to keep a geographical balance through each calendar month, with all lines (except the W&C and Romford-Upminster) and areas featuring at least once in every month if possible. I also try to keep a balance of the locations used - the only hard and fast rule is that no location will appear more than twice in a single calendar month, but I do try to spread them out more than that (generally I try to leave at least 300 days between appearances unless required for a link). Over all locations that have been used more than once the average of average intervals between appearances is 1 year, 344 days. For current TfL stations the average average is 1 year 98 days, for other locations it is 2 years 253 days. This means that not every location that fits a link is suitable. For Tuesday's question about Road and Street stations for example, I didn't want to use Goldhawk Road as that appeared earlier this month whereas Queens Road Peckham's previous appearance was in January 2019. Old Street last appeared on 29 October 2019 and that was the 18th time it has featured in this quiz, 18 times is the current maximum and I'm not giving anything a 19th appearance just yet so that couldn't be one of the stations used then. The east end of the Goblin has been heavily used this month, ruling out Leyton Midland Road, Leytonstone High Road and Blackhorse Road.
I also have a preference for using locations that I have photos of in stock where possible, and I try to include a photographs by others so it isn't all me (an average month is about 85% my photographs, in the last year it's ranged between 77% and 94%, as of today this month is 87%).
When I don't have a photograph I need I have to find the time to do this. For example I spent all day yesterday photographing between Hayes & Harlington and Reading, almost exclusively for the quiz. I will need to spend several hours over the next few days sorting the photos, which involves identifying where they were taken and what they are showing. This is usually relatively easy for the photos taken at stations, but can be time consuming if its not clear what something is or exactly where between stations a photo is - there are some I'll have to reject because I just can't work out what the correct answer is.
I made a trip specifically to New Eltham station to get a single photograph to use as a background the other day, but I wasn't able to get to the other specific location I needed in time, so it didn't end up getting used. A few years ago I even went as far as Bath to get a photograph of the old Green Park station for use in the quiz. Several other people, not exclusively forum members, have also been kind enough to go out of their way to get me photographs I wasn't able to.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I've been putting my own time (and money - yesterday alone cost me about £20 in travel) into this quiz for over 13 years now, and I do my best but I've never claimed to be perfect.
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Post by arun on Feb 28, 2020 16:24:24 GMT
Well, I for one appreciate your efforts
Arun
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 28, 2020 16:41:09 GMT
Well, I for one appreciate your efforts Yes. I hope you don't feel you were being got at, Chris. I was just pointing out the difficulties with odd one out/find a connection questions. Both for the setter and the solver. The only places I think they should not be used are exams, where their ambiguity could unfairly disadvantage someone for, in the worst case, the rest of their life. (These types of question used to be included in the 11+ preliminaries.) |
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Post by John Tuthill on Feb 28, 2020 17:20:06 GMT
Well, I for one appreciate your efforts Arun Me also. Keep up the good work, even though I'm terrible at it!  |
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rincew1nd
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Post by rincew1nd on Feb 28, 2020 20:09:49 GMT
A while back I used to jovially refer to points, some times they were even glowing bonus points and they might even .
As one of the those with access the the answers, I'll try and give marks for effort in future!
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Post by Colin D on Feb 28, 2020 21:19:27 GMT
As one of the quiz team that has now spent more (a lot more) of my life in Canada than England I’m probably more guilty than anyone for not recognizing some of the landmarks in the quiz. I do try to follow our Quizmaster’s instructions, but may on a few occasions miss a possible alternative answer when it comes to: “If answers to the link are given that are true, but not the answer I was looking for say this. If you don't know whether their answer is true, just say it isn't the answer we're looking for." I’ll also try to do a better job of giving credit when I can. Also a big thank you to Chris M for all the time and effort you put into the daily quiz. |
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Post by zbang on Feb 28, 2020 21:27:21 GMT
As an example, which one of these if the odd one out: DVD VCR RADIO DOG Dog, of course; the rest are electronics  . OTOH, they're all acronyms for something, practically every English word is now an acronym, albeit some are a bit of a stretch. |
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Feb 28, 2020 22:47:17 GMT
Despite my frequent (and occasionally badly misunderstood) caustic remarks about the quiz team and their catastrophic blunders, I have to say that I wholeheartedly back each and every member of our shambolic questioning collective who give up most of their free time to provide us all with such worthy entertainment. Their's is a thankless task, putting clues before the greatest assembly of pedants known to man and expecting it all to run smoothly. I salute Chris M and his minions without recourse to mobs with burning torches or repetitive pictures of fictional dictators looking down benignly upon us.....  |
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class411
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Post by class411 on Feb 29, 2020 9:24:52 GMT
As an example, which one of these if the odd one out: DVD VCR RADIO DOG Dog, of course; the rest are electronics . OTOH, they're all acronyms for something, practically every English word is now an acronym, albeit some are a bit of a stretch. DVD - Only one that is palindromic, Only one with no definite agreed meaning* VCR - Only one that is obsolete, only one without a 'D' in it Radio - Only one that is not three letters, only one that is not an initialism**, only one with no moving parts DOG (Normal sense) Only one that is not man-made, only one that is not electronic, only one that makes a word if reversed, only one you play with as opposed to play. Some of these may seem facetious, but that's one of the problems with these puzzles, the 'correct' given answer can sometimes seem trivial/facetious. * Some say(said) Digital Video Disk, and some say Digital Versatile Disk. ** DOG can be an initialism of Digital Onscreen Graphic |
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Post by littlejohn on Feb 29, 2020 10:39:41 GMT
I am rarely able to make even a stab at an intelligent answer, but that is part of the attraction of the quizzes - I learn so much from them. Long may they continue.
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. OTOH, they're all acronyms for something, practically every English word is now an acronym, albeit some are a bit of a stretch.
