Ownership of Northern Height lines

[North End]

I was recently asked a question about the various Northern Heights lines which I couldn’t find an answer to, so here goes.

Obviously the Highgate to High Barnet and Mill Hill East section of GNR would have had its ownership transferred to LPTB (or successors) at some point. However what happened to the remaining sections, Mill Hill East to Edgware, and Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace? Were these ever transferred to LT ownership, or did they remain owned by BR until closure and the land being ultimately disposed off (mainly sold to local councils)? If so, what were the boundaries?

It appears that today LU owns the two pairs of Highgate tunnels, and the trackbed up to the approach to Cranley Gardens. Also it appears LT allocated bridge numbers for all of this network, were they ever officially used or carried? As an aside, were bridge numbers ever allocated to the Edgware to Bushey Heath Line?

Any thoughts would be appreciated, I’ve done some reading but so far anything on these topics is rather vague.

[quex]

I can't help with the historical side of things, but for the current boundaries I think there's no better than TfL's Property Asset Register Public web map.

tfl.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=5129c766255941d3be16a6828faa8f18

[Chris L]

Some of the trackbed on the open air has become public footpaths. One part near Muswell Hill has housing across it.

The section nearest to Edgware station still has track and is used to transfer materials from road to rail.

[theblackferret]

Jan 15, 2021 23:51:39 GMT North End said:

I was recently asked a question about the various Northern Heights lines which I couldn’t find an answer to, so here goes.

Obviously the Highgate to High Barnet and Mill Hill East section of GNR would have had its ownership transferred to LPTB (or successors) at some point. However what happened to the remaining sections, Mill Hill East to Edgware, and Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace? Were these ever transferred to LT ownership, or did they remain owned by BR until closure and the land being ultimately disposed off (mainly sold to local councils)? If so, what were the boundaries?

It appears that today LU owns the two pairs of Highgate tunnels, and the trackbed up to the approach to Cranley Gardens. Also it appears LT allocated bridge numbers for all of this network, were they ever officially used or carried? As an aside, were bridge numbers ever allocated to the Edgware to Bushey Heath Line?

Any thoughts would be appreciated, I’ve done some reading but so far anything on these topics is rather vague.

I'm just looking at London's Local Railways by Alan A Jackson. Under the original plan, announced in 1935, and on which work was initially due to start in November 1936:

"The Tube-stock used would be partly owned by the LNER which was to retain the freehold(my emphasis) of its' lines."

The rest of the part-chapter makes no mention of an outright transfer of ownership on any of the Northern Heights lines, built,converted or simply mooted as you choose. A later chapter talks about the demise of the Alexandra Palace branch in 1954 & then notes that Muswell Hill goods yard closed in June 1956 & Cranley Gardens yard went west in May 1957.

Only a guess here, but I can't see LPTB or LT keeping goods yards going on their property.

Hope that assists.

[bigvern]

Bridges were Allocated Numbers at least on the Northern City line from Drayton Park to High Barnet, and used code 'HB', the Bridge 'HB20' is at Woodside Avenue, but if all Bridges are counted backwards towards Drayton Park HB1 would be a Overbridge north of Drayton Park, if including flyunders at Finsbury Park and its Subways, it appears no numbers or plates are visible.

Bridges on the Mill Hill - Edgware Branch were allocated 'E', and started after Finchley Central on first bridge on the Mill Hill Branch as E1 Nether Street/Dollis Park, E16 would have been Deans Lane at the end of the Edgware Depot Spur, however the line would have continued north from Edgware on the alignment of the Burnt Oak line, so possibly Bridges north of Edgware may have been allocated 'NT' numbers rather than 'E' ones

The other part of the Line from Morden - Golders Green to Edgware were Coded NT and 'NT1' is Morden Depot Footbridge, and 'NT37' is Station Road in Edgware

Alexandra Palace Branch would have likely to be allocated Bridge Numbers and 4 Bridges were in place but not aware of the Numbering other than would start at 1 maybe AB would have been used

Note: The Middle Numbers are the Km distance from Ongar, Which changed to the Northern City line from the Victoria Line at Highbury & Islington (36.29), and carried on until East Finchley  the Mill Hill Line took Distances from Kings Cross Loop
 


n/a Muswell Hill Overbridge Muswell Hill - Alexandra Palace Northern City Line (AB4)
n/a Viaduct Viaduct Cranley Gardens - Muswell Hill Northern City Line (AB3)
n/a St James's Lane Underbridge Cranley Gardens - Muswell Hill Northern City Line (AB2)
n/a Muswell Hill Road Overbridge Highgate - Cranley Gardens Northern City Line (AB1)


HB20 Woodside Avenue Overbridge 46.03 Highgate Depot - East Finchley Northern Line
HB19 Station Subway Subway 42.48 Highgate Northern City Line
HB18 Shepherds Hill Overbridge Crouch End - Highgate Northern City Line
HB17 Northwood Road Underbridge Crouch End - Highgate Northern City Line
HB16 Stanhope Road Underbridge Crouch End - Highgate Northern City Line
HB15 Crouch End Hill Overbridge 41.01 Crouch End Northern City Line
HB14 Crouch Hill Overbridge Stroud Geen - Crouch End Northern City Line
HB13 Mount View Road Underbridge Stroud Geen - Crouch End Northern City Line
HB12 Mount Pleasant Villas Underbridge Stroud Geen - Crouch End Northern City Line
HB11 Stapleton Hall Road Underbridge Stroud Geen - Crouch End Northern City Line
HB10 Upper Tollington Park Underbridge 40.09 Stoud Green Northern City Line
HB9 Oxford Road Footpath Underbridge Finsbury Park - Stroud Green Northern City Line
HB8 Stroud Green Road Underbridge Finsbury Park - Stroud Green Northern City Line
HB7 Station Subway Subway 38.91 Finsbury Park Northern City Line
HB6 Station Subway Subway 38.90 Finsbury Park Northern City Line
HB5 Seven Sisters Road Underbridge Drayton Park - Finsbury Park Northern City Line
HB4 East Coast Main Line Overbridge Drayton Park - Finsbury Park Northern City Line
HB3 Flyunder Overbridge Drayton Park - Finsbury Park Northern City Line
HB2 Flyunder Overbridge Drayton Park - Finsbury Park Northern City Line
HB1 Drayton Park Overbridge 37.66 Drayton Park Northern City Line

E1 Nether Street / Dollis Park Footbridge 50.01 Finchley Central - Mill Hill East Northern Line
E2 Crescent Road Overbridge 50.16 Finchley Central - Mill Hill East Northern Line
E3 Viaduct Viaduct 50.48 Finchley Central - Mill Hill East Northern Line
E3A Dollis Road Viaduct 50.47 Finchley Central - Mill Hill East Northern Line
E3C Dollis Brook Viaduct 50.49 Finchley Central - Mill Hill East Northern Line
E4 Frith Lane Underbridge 50.97 Finchley Central - Mill Hill East Northern Line
E5 Bittacy Hill Underbridge 51.07 Finchley Central - Mill Hill East Northern Line
E6 Signal Gantry Gantry Mill Hill East Northern Line
E7 Sanders Lane Overbridge Mill Hill East - Mill Hill The Hale Northern Line
E8 Purdey Road Overbridge Mill Hill East - Mill Hill The Hale Northern Line
E9 Page Street Overbridge Mill Hill East - Mill Hill The Hale Northern Line
E10 Footpath Subway Mill Hill East - Mill Hill The Hale Northern Line
E11 Watford Way Overbridge Mill Hill East - Mill Hill The Hale Northern Line
E11 Bunn's Lane Overbridge Mill Hill East - Mill Hill The Hale Northern Line
E12 Railway Bridge (MML) Overbridge Mill Hill The Hale - Edgware Northern Line
E13 Bunn's Lane (North) Overbridge Mill Hill The Hale - Edgware Northern Line
E14 Edgware Brook Overbridge Mill Hill The Hale - Edgware Northern Line
E15 Culvert Structure Mill Hill The Hale - Edgware Northern Line
E16 Deans Lane Overbridge Mill Hill The Hale - Edgware Northern Line
Edgware Station via Mill Hill would be 56.06km

The Official Distance for Bushey Heath would have been 60.92 taking the  via Mill Hill distance.

[straphanger]

If TfL owns any vacant land you can bet it's earmarked for development at some future time.

[spsmiler]

Jan 16, 2021 11:09:59 GMT theblackferret said:

I'm just looking at London's Local Railways by Alan A Jackson. Under the original plan, announced in 1935, and on which work was initially due to start in November 1936:

"The Tube-stock used would be partly owned by the LNER which was to retain the freehold(my emphasis) of its' lines."

The rest of the part-chapter makes no mention of an outright transfer of ownership on any of the Northern Heights lines, built,converted or simply mooted as you choose. A later chapter talks about the demise of the Alexandra Palace branch in 1954 & then notes that Muswell Hill goods yard closed in June 1956 & Cranley Gardens yard went west in May 1957.

Only a guess here, but I can't see LPTB or LT keeping goods yards going on their property.

Hope that assists.

The section north of Edgware was to be 'new build', so most likely it would have had full LPTB ownership.

[davidb]

I've got an unofficial map entitled "London Transport Bridges & Structures" dated 12/81 and drawn by somebody called I.J.Robins which I seem to recall I obtained in the early 80s through TLURS. The structure numbering it has for the Northern Line (including the unopened parts) is as follows:

Finsbury Park-High Barnet: HB1-68 (Moorgate-Finsbury Park isn't on the map)
Alexandra Palace branch: AP1-11
Finchley Central-Edgware (both exclusive): E1-22
Morden area: NT1-3A

Golders Green northwards is a little complicated. There's a duplicate NT3A which is a removed turntable, otherwise it starts at NT3B and goes up to NT38 which is shown as a disused occupation bridge north of Station Road in Edgware. Following that, the numbering sequence continues with 'T' prefixes starting with T39 ('Public FB') and ending just south of Bushey Heath with T48 ('Culvert').

As I said the map is unofficial so I can't claim that it's fully accurate.

[metman]

There are probably a few scenarios here.

The line was transferred to LPTB - probably not
The line remained LNER until 1948 when it was due to be transferred to LPTB.
The line remained LNER until 1948 when it became British railways.

I suspect the latter but the answer if not available may lie in what happened with other lines such as the Central Line extensions or the District Line to Upminster?

[theblackferret]

There was still a goods service at Mill Hill The Hale until 29.2.64, so this again indicates BR ownership, especially as the second rail laid to Edgware in the war was taken up in the 1950's.

Additionally, the line to Alexandra Palace was closed in 1954, after consultation with the TUCC (Transport Users Consultative Committee, or chocolate fireguard to most rail people!!), and that was statutory with BR lines, not London Transport.

I think these two bits were never owned by LT at all-used by them,another matter.

[spsmiler]

Jan 17, 2021 21:39:01 GMT metman said:

There are probably a few scenarios here.

The line was transferred to LPTB - probably not
The line remained LNER until 1948 when it was due to be transferred to LPTB.
The line remained LNER until 1948 when it became British railways.

I suspect the latter but the answer if not available may lie in what happened with other lines such as the Central Line extensions or the District Line to Upminster?

I do not know about the Central line east to Epping, etc, but I thought that the Upminster route was part of BR until 1969. Thats why some of the stations had (and in a few cases still have) British Railways Eastern Region signage. Nowadays the surviving BR signage is for 'heritage' reasons.

Barking and Upminster are still Network Rail stations, with C2C signage.

[davidb]

I've found the following page about the LMS colour-light signalling system which was installed not just on the Watford DC lines but also on District Line tracks between Bromley and Upminster:

www.davros.org/rail/signalling/lmsr/newlines.html

The following text is of interest:

"The other line runs from Bromley-by-Bow to Upminster. In 1858 the LTSR (another LMSR precursor) opened a line from Bow to Barking to meet its existing route to Tilbury and Southend, and in 1885 it built a cut-off between Barking and Pitsea via Upminster. In 1902 the Metropolitan District Railway, to become the District Line, was connected to it just west of Bromley-by-Bow station, with trains running as far as Upminster. In 1905 the line was electrified on the four-rail system to East Ham and the District service cut back to there, returning to Barking in 1908. In 1932 the line was quadrupled, electrification was extended to Upminster, and the new signalling installed on the new tracks.

In 1960 London Underground took over the electrified tracks from Bromley to Upminster and replaced the LMSR signalling with their own standard system. The signals on the New Lines were replaced by the British Rail standard 3-aspect system in 1988 as the old system had worn out."