Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 26, 2005 14:29:49 GMT
Reading the comments on another thread about different styles of cab, I was wondering what would be the features of a perfect cab from a driver's point of view.
Imagine you've been asked to design the cab of a new type of stock, you've got a clean slate. All it must include is whatever is needed to run on LU metals and you can design these how you want. Everything else is up to you.
Chris
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Post by ikar on Aug 26, 2005 14:44:43 GMT
A perfect cab: www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/182/PXXX0016.jpgEdit: This image was far too big to be directly pasted on the page! It took about a minute to load on my broadband connection, so I've changed the image tags to link tags.
Ikar, please consider those people who are still using dial-up connections! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2005 15:01:31 GMT
Personally, I'm not fussy! The only things I ask is that there is a reasonably comfortable seat (you wouldn't expect someone working in an office to stand or be sitting on a block of wood all day!), and the control desk should be reasonably ergonomic, with all of the main controls close to hand (TBC, whistle, wipers, doors etc).
It would be nice if LUL could adopt the foot pedal style of deadman like most modern mainline stocks instead of the handle-based deadman.
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Post by ikar on Aug 26, 2005 15:04:06 GMT
Personally, I'm not fussy! The only things I ask is that there is a reasonably comfortable seat (you wouldn't expect someone working in an office to stand or be sitting on a block of wood all day!), and the control desk should be reasonably ergonomic, with all of the main controls close to hand (TBC, whistle, wipers, doors etc). It would be nice if LUL could adopt the foot pedal style of deadman like most modern mainline stocks instead of the handle-based deadman. Is the cab in my picture good for you? |
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Post by igelkotten on Aug 26, 2005 15:23:30 GMT
Interesting subject, Chris, and one that I certainly have quite a few opinions on! I'll try to dig up a few photos and see if I can make a detailed post tonight. Meanwhile, I'd say that generally, speaking as a driver, I want a cab that is: - Reasonably sound- and vibrationproof. - Has good ventilation, and is able to cope with both cold and hot weather, as well as moisture. - Has a decent operating position, and makes it possible for you to vary your posture whilst driving, preventing RSI and fatigue. - Has good physical and informational ergonomics. Buttons, switches and dials are logically grouped, information is presented in a clear, unambigious and concise manner, data not needed is hidden away until specifically called up, and the most common operations should be easy to do without distracting from other tasks. - Has good physical safety -missile proof windows, locking cab doors and so on. - Is designed with the users in mind, and not only the drivers. It also has to be easy to clean and maintain if it is to stay in a good condition. Does this dream cab exist? Not completely, but I've seen some quite good ones. Interestingly enough, the modern engineer's vehicles and on-track plant used here in the Stockholm Metro has some very, very good cabs indeed. Then again, some of the old ones are terrible, so it is very much a generational thing, I suppose. Oh, and the looks of the cab is way down on my list. Form should follow function! Let's get away from nightmares such as the US Raymond Loewy-styled GG1 locomotive, which was indeed a very sleek and cool-looking art deco object, but had a very cramped cab with an extremely narrow field of vision and lousy workplace environment. It would be interesting if people answering to this thread could also write a bit about why they think a certain cab or feature is so good (or bad, as the case may be). Ikar, what makes you think that the class 189 cab is so good? What is it about it that you particularily like? I'm curious!  |
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Post by setttt on Aug 26, 2005 15:30:12 GMT
I'm a bit young to be able to voice any proper opinions on this topic, but for me, it has to be an 'A' stock cab. For crying out loud, it has two handles! Need I say more? www.trainweb.org/districtdave/html/a60_62_stock_11.htmlCan't say I'm surprised he's smiling ;D. The 73ts cab, which is the only one I've had any 'practical' experience in, is definitely the best out of the tube stocks IMO. |
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Post by Admin Team on Aug 26, 2005 16:04:00 GMT
I'm a bit young to be able to voice any proper opinions on this topic, but for me, it has to be an 'A' stock cab. For crying out loud, it has two handles! Need I say more? www.trainweb.org/districtdave/html/a60_62_stock_11.htmlCan't say I'm surprised he's smiling ;D. The 73ts cab, which is the only one I've had any 'practical' experience in, is definitely the best out of the tube stocks IMO. In many ways I quite like the 73TS cabs, but (on the few occasions I've been in the driving seat) I find the desk cramped and the seat uncomfortable for any lengthy period of time. Similarly, although the layout of the A60 cab is good, that seat is similar to Alan's analogy to a lump of wood! Ergonomics are nowadays things that are taken more and more into account, so I guess the 95/96TS cabs are more the way that we'll see things in the future. |
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Post by Christopher J on Aug 26, 2005 16:15:18 GMT
Like Alan, I'm not fussy as long as everything is in a sensible place. But if I had to choice... I would vote for the 92/95/96 cabs, everything you would need to drive the Train is situated around the cab desk and is all within reaching distance, Buttons/Whistle to the left, CCTV Monitors, Target Speed/Speedo, Door controls and Twin ATO start buttons in front of you, CTBC to the right and MCBs behind you. Stick the RKL220 in, twist barrel selector to appropriate selection, sit down in drivers seat, close doors, wind CTBC up - How hard can it get? ;D www.squarewheels.org.uk/rly/stock/stockpics/92stockCabInterior.jpgwww.squarewheels.org.uk/rly/stock/stockpics/96cabIntMedSotM.jpg |
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Post by chris on Aug 26, 2005 16:42:21 GMT
A good cab will be one with a few windows in the back, so passengers can see ahead!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2005 18:53:11 GMT
A good cab will be one with a few windows in the back, so passengers can see ahead! Oh, no! I don't want passengers looking over my shoulder while I'm driving. You can imagine some of the timewasters "Why did you start braking in service 4 when then driver yesterday only used service 3?" etc. And when it all goes tits up, they would be able to see the panic on my face as I try to figure out why the hell the train won't move! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2005 23:42:22 GMT
Personally, when I have been on the front of the 92ts, i wasnt particaully a fan of the cab design, as there are sharp corners everywhere, and the seat doesnt really go high enough to be at a comfortable level to the TBC. Can't say I'm surprised he's smiling ;D. Those of you that know Mr G, who is in the photo will know that he spends 3/4 of his life smiling, which i find good. Someone that is that happy....  |
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Post by zman on Aug 27, 2005 2:21:03 GMT
A good cab will be one with a few windows in the back, so passengers can see ahead! Having windows with a direct view into the cab creates heavy glare onto the vision glass (windshield) which reduces the visibility of the roadbed for the Train Operator, a very dangerous condition. On certain equipment, I'll get a cab door glass that will allow the passenger an unimpeded, wide view of the cab and tracks. I immediately cover it up with newspaper. I could give a rats a** if a railfan wants to look out the window, I'd rather be able to view the signal maintainers working on the roadbed ahead. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2005 9:09:49 GMT
Yeah, the only thing I dislike about the 92/95/96ts, is having to lean forward all the time to operate the door controls. The only way round it is to have the seat right forward, but even then, yer knees keep hitting the monitors for the platform cameras. When I've had a go on other stocks, I quite like the layout on the 73ts, despite being a l/h drive train... Still, cant have everything the way you want it. OTS, I have seen CAD drawings for new stocks, with a distinctive futuristic look. A centrally positioned seat, sort of glass bubble for the cab, and an odd looking 'slider' for the TBC, this was in the shape of a palm, and acted as the deadman's.
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Post by igelkotten on Aug 30, 2005 15:10:42 GMT
OK, here are a few cab pictures, with my comments.  This is the desk of an X3 EMU used on the Arlanda Express airport shuttle. Manufactured by Alstom in Birmingham, they are generally considered some of the weirdest things running on Swedish rails. The cab is so-so, but has become better after a few rebuilds. A lot of the instrumentation looks like something from an old Fiat, in my opinion. LU aficionados should take an extra look at the manometer gauge and the key next to the blue hockey puck. The hockey puck, however, is a unique feature to these trains, and something that is really interesting. The hockey puck is the controller handle, moved forwards for acceleration and backwards for braking. The interesting thing with this type of controller is that you can lay your hand upon it, with the controller cupped in your palm. Thus, you have your hand and arm in a very natural and relaxed postion, and can use the armrest of your chair to get some very good support for your arm. This means a significantly reduced risk of repetitive strain injuries.  This is the driver's desk of a refurbed C13H car in Stockholm. It is identical to the ones in refurbed C14-C15 stock, too. The cabs are late 70'ies vintage, refittedd with a new desk and electroinics. They are noisy, drafty and vibrate a lot. Still, you have three different vigilance devices -press down the controller handle, use the black handle to the left, or the foot pedals (not shown). This, combined with a seat that is not fixed to the floor, but movable, means that you can very easily alter your driving position. This means that you can avoid at least some fatigue, strain and repetitive strain problems.  This is one of the best cabs I have ever driven. It is from a spanish commuter and regional train, built in the late ninties. The cab was large, airy and well-ventilated, with HVAC of course. The cab was also very silent, even with the AC running and at high speeds. The seat is comfortable and easily adjusted. The desk layout is OK, even though some of the functions in the train management system are somewhat weird and cluttered.  This is from the cab of a modern Swiss narrow-gauge loco, delivered by ABB in the late eighties-early ninties. What is interesting is that they have put the controller handles in the armrests of the seat, somethign that is quite common on engineer's equipment, but for some reason rathe runusual on passenger equipment. This is another good idea for reducing strain and fatigue.  And this is the cab of a Swedish X2 high speed train. Typical of late eighties design, it does have several good features. The controllers on the desk are placed such that they are easy to reach, with good legroom underneath the desk, with a foot pedal for the vigilance device. Functions important during normal running are placed in front of the driver, in the field of vision. A diagnostic computer and certain activation switches are located above the driver, where the readouts are easily readable, and since the switches on that panel are rarely used, they can be placed out of the way and not clutter the desk. Oh, and the hotplate is reachable without getting up from your seat -an important point. One drawback is the indication panel to the left, containing various indication lights. Some of these denote normal operating condition, others various faults, but they are all grouped together, have the same shape and style of text, and can sometimes even use the same colours. In other words, a bit of an information clutter. The reason that panel was chosen is that it is a standard design, used on virtually all locos and trains operated by SJ at that time, and it was felt that the benefits of standardization outweighed the drawbacks. Edited to add: The three topmost pictures are taken by yours truly, but the lower two are ones found floating around on the net, and I have no idea of with whom the copyright, if any, resides. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2005 15:41:44 GMT
Superb post, Igelkotten! Nice photo's and excellent descriptions!
If we had a "post of the week award", you'd be top of my shortlist!
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Post by ikar on Aug 30, 2005 16:00:10 GMT
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Post by Colin on Aug 30, 2005 21:36:21 GMT
OTS, I have seen CAD drawings for new stocks, with a distinctive futuristic look. A centrally positioned seat, sort of glass bubble for the cab, and an odd looking 'slider' for the TBC, this was in the shape of a palm, and acted as the deadman's. Centrally positioned seat? I thought the idea of the 'M' door was to evacuate trains in tunnels. As long as the everyday stuff is within easy reach, and the safety stuff is out of easy reach - I could't care less what it looks like!  |
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Post by Tom on Aug 30, 2005 21:54:46 GMT
OTS, I have seen CAD drawings for new stocks, with a distinctive futuristic look. A centrally positioned seat, sort of glass bubble for the cab, and an odd looking 'slider' for the TBC, this was in the shape of a palm, and acted as the deadman's. Centrally positioned seat? I thought the idea of the 'M' door was to evacuate trains in tunnels. As long as the everyday stuff is within easy reach, and the safety stuff is out of easy reach - I could't care less what it looks like! I think S Stock may be an interesting development... Depending on how closely related it will be to it's Swedish ancestors, you may or may not get a central driving position. Certainly the equivalent of the M door on C20s in Stockholm can be used for detraining, though I've never seen it done and I get the feeling it isn't quite as easy in practice as the manuals I've got suggest. |
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Post by q8 on Aug 31, 2005 3:26:43 GMT
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Post by chris on Aug 31, 2005 9:09:55 GMT
What about air-con in a cab? A swivel chair will add a bit of enjoyment. Everyone loves a swivel chair.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2005 11:33:16 GMT
What about air-con in a cab? A swivel chair will add a bit of enjoyment. Everyone loves a swivel chair. Yeah, but how are you going to hold / press the deadman whilst spinning round on your chair whilst driving? Or, is this an idea to make ATO lines 'not boring' for drivers........ |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Aug 31, 2005 11:36:25 GMT
Nah, swivelling on your chair is the train control - the faster you swivel the faster the train travels, slow down to break and if you want an emergeny brake application just fall off the chair! ;D
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Post by igelkotten on Aug 31, 2005 15:42:39 GMT
Stockholm metro stock has had swivel chairs since prehistoric times. A large part of the reason is probably that we have to get up and open the cab door at every station in order to close the passenger doors.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2005 16:40:36 GMT
D stocks have swivel chairs but they do have a lever that lets you lock them in position if you want.
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Post by igelkotten on Sept 1, 2005 10:59:44 GMT
Perhaps I should add a little side note:
The X3 desk has, as you might see if you look real close, a small decal of a moose stuck on one of the panels. This is the unit that did the cold weather tests up at Malmbanan in the farthest northern reaches of Sweden. On it's way from the test site, the train got molested by an angry moose. The moose made short order of the fibreglass coupler shield, and then walked away, satisfied with having destroyed the good looks of his competitor. The Alstom Birmingham technicians on board were, reportedly, severly traumatized and had to be revived with liberal libations of kaffegök
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