Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 26, 2023 9:51:19 GMT
The number of firings is relevant if your adding additional colours to an Underground line diagram. Yes, but in most cases you'll be adding only 1-2 colours at most. The Victoria line interchanges with the greatest number of Overground branches (5 or 6, depending how you split the lines out of Liverpool Street), but one of them will likely remain Orange, and the others will probably use colours in the tramlines of existing Underground lines and the Victoria line diagrams that show interchange colours already require all of the other colours except the Waterloo & City, Elizabeth line and DLR. The DLR and Elizabeth line already use tramlines so those colours won't be reused, and so at most you'll be adding one colour.
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Post by xplaistow on Mar 26, 2023 13:18:04 GMT
I have heard calls to split the Lea Valley Line, but I think it's more simple to keep them combined. The logic behind using different names for the Chingford and Edmonton routes (which I personally agree with) is that they only have 3 stations in common (Liverpool Street/Bethnal Green/Hackney Downs) and the shared section is relatively short compared to the combined length of those routes, plus it would make clear the distinction between which trains stop at Cambridge Heath/London Fields and which don't.
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Post by AndrewPSSP on Mar 26, 2023 22:02:32 GMT
The North London line will be confused for the northern, and both the North London Line and East London Line are long and extremely generic. Plus, the "North" London Line goes to Richmond and Clapham, and the "East" London Line spends most of its time in South London, also going to Clapham. While these names historically made sense, they now cover a larger route. In addition, while these names may be the status quo for TfL and those knowledgeable about trains, most commuters have never heard these names before. In terms of alternatives, I have heard the Brunel Line being thrown around for the East London Line, and I think this is one rare time that I approve the naming of a line after a person, since all routes pass through the Thames Tunnel, and both Isambard Kingdom Brunel and his father are relatively free of controversy, and due to Brunel's contributions to Britain's railways. The other day I was talking to my friends at Barts and they understood what I meant when talking about the East London line. I grew up in New Cross and my parents still call it the East London line, even the extensions. I know this is purely anecdotal, but I don't think the name "East London line" has quite fallen out of use among the 'common people'. I've also noticed over the years that there's still a decent amount of street furniture & line diagrams mentioning the East London line by name. Of course, another reason I would personally like the East London name retained is so Celia's old announcement at Canada Water may be reused. Sarah Parnell's new announcements on the Jubilee line just sound so depressing.
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Post by ianr on Mar 27, 2023 11:05:30 GMT
Liverpool Street Overground , could revert to "The Jazz" & Romford/Upminster to The Push/Pull Line.
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Post by trt on Mar 27, 2023 11:30:14 GMT
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Post by croxleyn on Mar 27, 2023 16:57:25 GMT
"Watford" would get confused with Watford Metropolitan...
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Post by Chris L on Mar 27, 2023 18:43:55 GMT
What about the thickness of the lines? Either you can get the alignment correct or you can't and fine alignment doesn't seem to be a problem elsewhere on the signs. The number of firings seems irrelevant - no one sign is going to have that many more colours and some are not going to have any if that colour is in use elsewhere on the same sign. For example see the sign at Enfield Town in this image by Bowroaduk on Flikr which has Orange (LO line), black (Enfield Town background), light blue (Victoria interchange), red (double arrow), yellow (Circle interchange), pink (H&C interchange), maroon (Met interchange) and dark blue (TfL Rail interchange) so any of those colours are possible without adding to the number of firings. You obviously think you know best despite me having worked with vitreous enamel since the mid 1980s.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 27, 2023 23:13:12 GMT
I'm sure you do know better about the processes involved and the limitations, and I don't disagree there is a limit to the number of colours. However, I'm just disagreeing that those limitations will be relevant given observations of signs that exist on the network currently and the understanding that colours that already exist on a sign do not add to the number of colours on a sign. The suggestion is to reuse the existing red, yellow, green, brown, etc. (in a different style) not add lavender, rose, russet, etc.
For example if a sign currently has black, dark blue, red, orange and yellow on it, if that bit of the Overground shown changes from orange/white tramlines to dark blue/white or orange/dark blue tramlines, then the number and combination of colours on the sign has not changed.
Yes, some signs will increase the number of colours, but given that signs exist currently that include 8 (and possibly more) colours, that number and combination of colours can exist and unless technology has gone backwards the same number and combination can exist on a new sign.
Dark blue/white tramlines are exactly as possible alignment wise as orange/white ones, unless there is something special about the colour orange? Orange/dark blue tramlines would require careful alignment but when I've looked closely at existing signs I'm not seeing alignment issues with interchange boxes or with dark blue text on the light coloured line swatches (e.g. Circle, H&C) so, again unless there is something you've not mentioned, I don't understand why it would not be possible?
If there is something I'm missing in all this (and it's entirely possible) then please say what it is that I'm missing and why I'm wrong, because just saying I'm wrong is not helpful.
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trainwizard
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Post by trainwizard on Mar 28, 2023 5:53:21 GMT
Liverpool Street Overground , could revert to "The Jazz" & Romford/Upminster to The Push/Pull Line. I have heard of the Push and Pull before, but what does "The Jazz" refer to?
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Post by Chris L on Mar 28, 2023 6:41:33 GMT
I'm sure you do know better about the processes involved and the limitations, and I don't disagree there is a limit to the number of colours. However, I'm just disagreeing that those limitations will be relevant given observations of signs that exist on the network currently and the understanding that colours that already exist on a sign do not add to the number of colours on a sign. The suggestion is to reuse the existing red, yellow, green, brown, etc. (in a different style) not add lavender, rose, russet, etc. For example if a sign currently has black, dark blue, red, orange and yellow on it, if that bit of the Overground shown changes from orange/white tramlines to dark blue/white or orange/dark blue tramlines, then the number and combination of colours on the sign has not changed. Yes, some signs will increase the number of colours, but given that signs exist currently that include 8 (and possibly more) colours, that number and combination of colours can exist and unless technology has gone backwards the same number and combination can exist on a new sign. Dark blue/white tramlines are exactly as possible alignment wise as orange/white ones, unless there is something special about the colour orange? Orange/dark blue tramlines would require careful alignment but when I've looked closely at existing signs I'm not seeing alignment issues with interchange boxes or with dark blue text on the light coloured line swatches (e.g. Circle, H&C) so, again unless there is something you've not mentioned, I don't understand why it would not be possible? If there is something I'm missing in all this (and it's entirely possible) then please say what it is that I'm missing and why I'm wrong, because just saying I'm wrong is not helpful. Vitreous enamel is glass fused onto low carbon steel. The colours are the same as those used in glazed pottery. It is not like using printing ink. The colour selected for the Elizabeth line was chosen without consultation with the industry and can't be produced in vitreous enamel. As I have said several times there has to be a firing order with some colours than can be screened onto the panel together and fired at the same temperature. When you look at the panel after each stage the colours will not be the final ones. You are now suggesting that orange stripes are simple to apply over/beside previously fired colours. Sorry it's not a simple process when you look at the size of the flag boxes at the interchanges on line diagrams. The text won't fit between your lines. Repeating your view is not helpful either.
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Post by ianr on Mar 28, 2023 9:21:10 GMT
I have heard of the Push and Pull before, but what does "The Jazz" refer to? The Jazz was a nickname given to the high frequency Enfield Town & Chingford services. There are various opinions on the origin of the name, either the colours of the rolling stock , or the beat of the engines used, but do not know a definitive answer. Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote edited. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 28, 2023 10:55:14 GMT
Vitreous enamel is glass fused onto low carbon steel. The colours are the same as those used in glazed pottery. It is not like using printing ink. The colour selected for the Elizabeth line was chosen without consultation with the industry and can't be produced in vitreous enamel. However, the colours used for all the LU lines, the Overground and DLR can be produced in vitreous enamel, and so could be used instead of the orange. As I have said several times there has to be a firing order with some colours than can be screened onto the panel together and fired at the same temperature. When you look at the panel after each stage the colours will not be the final ones. Yes, I understand this but I don't understand how it is relevant? All the existing colours can self-evidently be produced and the only thing that matters to the end user is the end product. You are now suggesting that orange stripes are simple to apply over/beside previously fired colours. I'm not suggesting doing anything with the existing signs, I'm talking about making new ones. Sorry it's not a simple process when you look at the size of the flag boxes at the interchanges on line diagrams. The text won't fit between your lines. Ah, now I think I understand where we are miscommunicating. Tramlines would only be used where tramlines currently are, solid colours would be used where solid colours currently are. Yes this would mean that e.g. green could mean District or e.g. Watford DC lines but while that's not ideal it's not the end of the world. Repeating your view is not helpful either. Nor is simply telling someone they are wrong. I've been trying to explain the reasoning for everything I've been saying, but "you can't do that" isn't helpful when I've been providing examples of where exactly that is currently done.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 28, 2023 11:46:32 GMT
A Harlequin is also a comedy / pantomime character or a court jester / joker / entertainer (for ancient kings / queens) who wears an unusual costume with Argyle Check patterns, sings, dances, etc. Many passengers thought that calling the Euston - Watford service by that name was rather apt, because the service was seen as somewhat unreliable ... as if it was being run by a joker who (to reference a well-known phrase) would be incapable of running a beer drinking session in a brewery. From what I remember there was a competition for a name for this service and Harlequin was the winner. At the time I thought that it was an bad name (coz it was not inspirational), even if it did accurately reflect what passengers thought about the service. I don't know exact calendar dates but feel sure that it did not last long. ======================== Re: 'Jazz' as a train service, in the 1920's there was pressure on the railway to electrify its services* but with the cost of doing this in mind the pre-grouping railway (Great Eastern?) wanted to prove that steam locos could match electric traction, especially with respect of service frequencies. Hmm, the destinations served by Jazz trains had better (more frequent) services than offered by London Overground today. Why 'Jazz'? I think it was because at that time this was a very popular type of music and the railway wanted a name that was well-liked / respected / fashionable! *In addition to the Underground Group, Metropolitan Railway, LBSCR, LSWR and LNWR in various parts of London, Liverpool, Manchester and Tyneside all had urban electric railways. This was seen as the way forward.
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Post by trt on Mar 28, 2023 12:01:52 GMT
The competition was in 1989/1990 and it was to name the shopping centre project which was near to Watford High Street Station. The winning entry was Harlequin and if I recall correctly the winner did mention that part of the reason was the name of the rail service. The Harlequin character is associated with Italian opera and a stylised design of the character was used as the shopping centre logo for many years until the Capital One asset was bought by the Intu Group and the mall was renamed Intu Watford. It has since been renamed again as something entirely forgettable... something to do with high ceilings aged entrances... erm. Ah! Atria.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 28, 2023 12:06:24 GMT
The Jazz service was unveiled just about the same time as the first London concerts by The Original Dixieland Jazz Band & the Great Eastern Railway's publicity service jumped at the chance of naming their new revised service after this exciting new cultural phenomenon. Wouldn't you? Possibly, though, it was a good job LT's publicity people didn't also go bandwagon-jumping when the Fleet Line's emergence coincided with the rise of punk rock.
After all, the Jazz Service exercise was designed to get far more passenger services by better utilizing the existing steam-hauled train paths by jazzing them up, rather than expensively electrifying the lines, as others had done. That took another 40 years to come to reasonable fruition.
The only comment I'd make on the name of the lines-get rid of Goblin,pronto. Daemonologists will tell you goblins aren't that bad,but they are at least mischievous little gits and not the sort of image that blends with a harmonious & well-run railway.
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Post by A60stock on Mar 28, 2023 16:28:25 GMT
I would be very surprised if the intention is to use different colours for each line. They should all remain as orange, just name each individual line I guess!
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Post by Chris L on Mar 28, 2023 18:21:03 GMT
I would be very surprised if the intention is to use different colours for each line. They should all remain as orange, just name each individual line I guess! Won't help much at Willesden Junction.
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Post by rapidtransitman on Mar 28, 2023 19:18:17 GMT
I would be very surprised if the intention is to use different colours for each line. They should all remain as orange, just name each individual line I guess! Each Underground line has its own colour. Overground lines need to be as clear as possible on the maps, with their own colours (hollow lines obviously) for instant identification.
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castlebar
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Post by castlebar on Mar 28, 2023 19:38:08 GMT
Each Underground line has its own colour. Overground lines need to be as clear as possible on the maps, with their own colours (hollow lines obviously) for instant identification. NO they don't The number of colours available is finite Many more and THAT is where there will be confusion. A veritable kaleidoscope. Soon, someone will suggest tartan for the Northern Line. More colours = more messy
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trainwizard
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Post by trainwizard on Mar 28, 2023 20:54:16 GMT
NO they don't The number of colours available is finite Many more and THAT is where there will be confusion. A veritable kaleidoscope. Soon, someone will suggest tartan for the Northern Line. More colours = more messy As I suggested earlier, you can use a lot of colours by keeping similarly coloured lines separate. In extreme cases you could even repeat colours (one filled-in, the other double line) - TfL rail temporarily was the same as the Piccadilly, and the Cable Car uses Central line red (ok, poor example, I know, but an example nonetheless). Also, I feel that by only renaming the lines and keeping the same colour, it leaves the tube map in the same mess as before. Colours are an essential part of identity - many first-time tourists refer to lines by their colour. But of course, there is a limit to the number of colours you can have on a map, eventually it becomes a mess or you aren't able to print as many colours. Basically, like a lot of things we argue about on this forum, there's a balance. More colours doesn't necessarily mean more messy, as they can help differentiate lines, but too many causes confusion. Less colours can simplify a map, but too little offers no separation between separate routes. Mod edit [Antharro]: Quote edited. Please be selective about the part of a post you wish to quote rather than the whole post verbatim, particularly if you are replying to the previous post in the thread.
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Dom K
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Post by Dom K on Mar 28, 2023 21:32:09 GMT
Lets keep it civil and consider the tone of your post before pressing the reply button. Thank you.
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Post by antharro on Mar 29, 2023 2:33:05 GMT
I've been through this thread and cleaned up some of the quotes. Please be selective when quoting previous quotes; it is rarely necessary to quote an entire post, especially if you're replying to the post immediately above you.
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Post by whistlekiller2000 on Mar 29, 2023 6:45:40 GMT
Try as I might I really can’t see any point in renaming or changing the colours of LO on the maps. I suspect it’s only really important to enthusiasts rather than anyone else, with the general public/tourists having more intelligence than they’re given credit for, being able to work out where they’re going as it stands just fine. I agree with the poster who thinks we should leave it well alone. There’s plenty more stuff that the money could be better spent on.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Mar 29, 2023 11:36:09 GMT
Plenty of people have commented before me about the idea of multiple colours. I tend to agree that it will only serve to make things more confusing.
As a comparator consider the London Connections map. Traditionally, it came in two variants - a BR version where their lines were in colour but the Underground's were in Black and White using the patterns on the B&W tube map, or an LT Version with the Underground in colour and the BR lines in thin black 'tramlines'.
Later versions did show both in colour but either using a different line weight for the Underground, DLR etc, or by alternating solid/tramline appearance for the NR lines; again, depending on who produced it.
Regardless of the solution, it becomes a bit of an information overload, and that's before any attempt is made to translate this onto an VE sign where the limitations of the technique and the manufacturing processes will be very apparent very quickly!
The simplest method would be to introduce names if you really need to (though I note Network South East used to run several different service patterns under a local brand name e.g. South Western Lines, back in the 1990s and that seemed to work perfectly well) but keep the single 'mode' colour to depict the Overground as a distinct network, a bit like the Elizabeth line does. And better still take them both, together with Tramlink and DLR, off the so-called 'Tube Map' as none are London Underground Services...
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Mar 29, 2023 12:58:43 GMT
I suspect it’s only really important to enthusiasts rather than anyone else, with the general public/tourists having more intelligence than they’re given credit for, being able to work out where they’re going as it stands just fine. The biggest issue for me are the "London Overground is part suspended"/"There are severe delays on London Overground." messages which are actively confusing when not followed by detail (which they sometimes are and sometimes are not) and add to information overload when there are independent problems on different routes (e.g. partially closed for engineering work between New Cross Gate and West Croydon/Crystal Palace, severe delays between Willesden Junction and Richmond due to a lineside fire at Shepherd's Bush, severe delays between Hackney Downs and Chingford and minor delays between Liverpool Street and Enfield Town and Cheshunt due to a signal failure at St James Street). Giving the routes individual names is (almost) guaranteed to alleviate this, and is one of the simpler ways to alleviate it, but it is not necessarily the only way to do so.
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Post by A60stock on Mar 29, 2023 13:07:03 GMT
Completely agree that the lines should be named individually but the colours not changed. This would also make it much easier to implement any changes to signage as in many cases you could just sticker over "London Overground" and replace with the name of the line. I understand there would still be a few stations on the network where this is causes a little complication though, but still far easier than changing the colours and actually having to produce entire new diagrams and signs.
Don't forget that the Crossrail lines will also need to be individually coloured once there is a second Crossrail in operation, but that makes more sense as they truly would be "new" lines through London (and tfl would probably want them to have a similar feel to the individuality of each underground line) whereas the Overground feels more like a combined network around central London (yes I know there are some exceptions where they do hit central london zone 1) which should be treated as one family with different names.
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jimbo
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Post by jimbo on Mar 29, 2023 19:20:43 GMT
The confusing orange spaghetti is only apparent on diagrams showing the whole Overground. I suggest this is most easily overcome by retaining the colour, but using distinctive infills to the tramlines for different services, e.g. orange/white cubes, rectangles, orange diamonds, zig-zag, ladder, long orange rectangles with short white gaps, or vice versa, etc. There would be no need to alter diagrams of individual services.
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Post by spsmiler on Mar 29, 2023 22:14:19 GMT
On the topic of confusion because all the lines are orange, lets remember that the same applies to the District line which has one line colour but two very distinct groups of services - with them both providing a joint service between Wimbledon and Earls Court.
Edgware Road - Upminster services are never normally provided, even though they are technically possible. Likewise, on the Overground Watford - Stratford (through trains) or Willesden Junction - Barking Riverside are very rare.
Showing these routes as separate services with their own visual identification will confuse passengers when through trains are run.
But if the various Overground routes are given individual colours or shaped identifiers then maybe it is also time for the Wimbleware line to be recognised as its own entity, just as the Hammersmith & City was eventually split off from Metropolitan. If 'yes' then will Olympia be seen as District line or Wimbleware line or yet a third service?
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Post by pbin on Mar 30, 2023 0:18:01 GMT
…maybe it is also time for the Wimbleware line to be recognised as its own entity, just as the Hammersmith & City was eventually split off from Metropolitan. If 'yes' then will Olympia be seen as District line or Wimbleware line or yet a third service? I wouldn’t be opposed to showing the district as multiple lines, I’ve seen quite a few confused people at Earl’s Court and have had to tell them which train they could take. The only issue would be that the Wimbledon-City services would need to be shown, too. So would that mean four services if Olympia is included? I think the in car line diagrams should be improved. The Overground does feature different line diagrams for different lines, but I think it’d be better to show the different services of the district line on one diagram, as most of these would overlap. The same goes for the Overground, seeing this orange mess on a map can be quite confusing for people who are not familiar with reading maps (and at times for people who can!), and have seen people not even bothering with the Overground even though it’ll shorten their journey times. It doesn’t make sense to show these different services as one entity. As a whole, the map does need a redesign.
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Post by f73a on Mar 30, 2023 7:27:50 GMT
The confusing orange spaghetti is only apparent on diagrams showing the whole Overground. Would a DLR style solution not be appropriate for this issue? On the dedicated modal map there are differing shades for each of the distinctive services, whilst the overall maps still retain the single modal colour?
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