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Post by jimbo on Mar 31, 2023 20:11:21 GMT
When Euston had an island platform, many trains from the south reversed there. It was also a train crew booking on point. There was a long siding to the south, west of the northbound line, where trains could be stored if no relief crew was available. Whilst the northbound running line was diverted to a new platform to provide cross-platform interchange with the new Victoria Line, the original northbound line remains for emergency reversing use. The siding is no longer connected to this track, but does its tunnel remain there or was it affected by the Victoria Line works?
Before the C&SLR extension to Euston, an even longer siding was provided in a similar location at the previous terminus at Angel. I believe this siding was enlarged for modern tube stock when the line was reconstructed in connection with integration into what we know as the Northern Line. When was the Angel siding last used for stabling? The northbound line was diverted to a new platform here when the original island platform was widened for southbound trains. The abandoned original northbound tunnel must remain either side of the wide platform. Does the long siding tunnel still remain, or was this affected by the northbound diversion works? How long is the unaffected part of that tunnel?
[Note my geographic references are in relation to the north/southbound lines rather than the actual east/west alignment of the route in this area!]
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Post by burkitt on Apr 1, 2023 7:34:11 GMT
The CSLR's siding tunnels were interesting features and something i've had cause to research previously. I'm on holiday at the moment, without access to my usual sources, so this is only a partial answer; hopefully someone else can fill on tbe gaps, otherwise I will once I am home. The Euston siding included a kickback for a locomotive when opened in 1907. A full diagram of the original layout including the northern sidings connected by a traverser can be found in this LURS Underground News article by Piers Connor LINK. Wtth the 1922-24 rebuild the platforms were extended southwards, with the scissors crossing and siding entrance also moving south, eliminating the kickback. I have seen diagrams which I think showed what has become of the siding now but cannot recall the detail, so will have to look that up when I am home. Angel I have researched quite extensively for the my podcast episode on that station LINK. Regular use of the siding for overnight stabling ceased in 1940 according to an article by Aidan Harris in the July 1987 LURS journal LINK. Rails Through The Clay states the access pointwork was removed on 23 January 1959 to simplify the automation of the signalling. The Abandoned Stations website mentions that part of the length of the siding was used for the new northbound track when the station was rebuilt in the 1990s LINK. |
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Post by burkitt on Apr 3, 2023 11:47:17 GMT
An update - having read the Euston section of the article previously linked to from Abandoned Stations LINK, it answers the question regarding its fate too. Disused since 1967 and still extant but trackless. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 6, 2023 4:45:42 GMT
The 1987 article by Aidan Harris mentions:
I wonder if a response was received? It was common for lower concourse phones to have connections to stations either side which could be patched through to the headwall for point-to-point working in the event of a major signalling problem. Since this signal was in the middle of a long station to station run, at the location of the former Weston Street signal cabin, I wonder if it was once provided for similar use.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 6, 2023 7:27:53 GMT
I seem to recall that the Angel siding was long enough for three trains, but that at Euston provided for only two trains, perhaps in the light of experience in terminal working at Angel. The Abandoned Stations website mentions that the Euston siding once held a 7-car train. I wonder if this was after terminal protection shortening, or whether the lengths I recall refer to C&SLR trains which were much shorter.
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Post by jimbo on Apr 8, 2023 8:01:07 GMT
I found a follow up entry on the C&SLR in the September 1987 Underground News p.156 link It mentions that a locomotive and five-coach set was then 175 feet long; I believe a 7-car standard stock train was about 373 feet. It shows Angel siding at 858ft, for 4 C&SLR trains or 2 standard stock trains. Euston nos. 1 & 2 sidings were 227ft, probably the overrun tunnels, and the pit siding 210ft, which would fit only one C&SLR train and not long enough for a standard stock train. I presume the siding was lengthened as part of the line reconstruction. Perhaps Angel siding was lengthened also? A siding is also listed at Old Street 291ft, for only one C&SLR train, which must have been abandoned on reconstruction. So does this tunnel still remain empty, and just where was it situated? Were the Old Street platforms lengthened at the other end, or did they absorb the former siding site? |
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Post by burkitt on Apr 8, 2023 11:58:08 GMT
I suspect the southerly siding at Euston was indeed lengthened when the CSLR was reconstructed. I have seen drawings which I think were from that era showing the proposed reconstruction of the buffer stop, implying continued use was intended, though I cannot recall details regarding length. I'll check the drawing when I'm back from holiday. The Abandoned Station website has details of the Old Street siding - disused since the twenties rebuild, isolated behind the tunnel lining, used as an access route for engineering works in the nineties and isolated again since LINK. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 15, 2023 21:00:47 GMT
I recall Northern Line management were concerned that the narrow island platform at Angel was an accident waiting to happen with growing demand, and the highest proportion of blind passengers on LU. This was because of the nearby national library for the blind. However, when they finally got their new station it had no lifts and the longest escalators in the UK, which regulations required to be stopped for each use by a guide dog! Even thirty years later the Elizabeth Line has not taken that title from the station.
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Post by burkitt on Apr 18, 2023 13:50:55 GMT
I've now had a chance to look at the archive drawings showing the siding at Euston.
A drawing from 15/2/1907 titled "City and South London Railway Euston Extension - Details of Buffer Stops at Euston" shows the design of the buffers in the loco spur, siding, and traverser chamber. The drawing of the loco spur and siding buffers is captioned "Occurs in 131'3/4'' Siding and Engine Spur"
A later drawing titled "City and South London Rly - Siding at Euston Station" from 1930 shows the siding only. Notes on it state:
365' Buffer to Block Joint
359'6'' Length of a seven car train
5'6'' Margin to end of train
Note - The overall length of the New Stock (1930) is 371ft for a seven car train
Note - Buffer Stops shewn in place of former Buffer Beams, dimensions altered accordingly and drawing No altered from "B" to "C" 10.12.30
A drawing from 12-11-1928 titled "C.&.S.L.R. Euston Siding - Proposed Hydraulic Buffer" shows the details of the buffer mentioned above. Notes on it state:
Length of Siding 364'5''
Length of 7 Cars 354'6'' Overall
Margin 4'11''
A drawing from 11-7-1928 titled "City Line - Euston Siding" shows the siding with the original simple buffer beam at the end. The length was originally given as 371'5'', but this has been crossed out and replaced with 403' and initialled JAH 13/10/50
It is difficult to know to what extent the works shown in the drawings were implemented in the form originally proposed. But I think it's fair to conclude the siding was extended at least once, and possibly multiple times during its life.
Finally, a drawing from 18-10-1938 is titled "Proposed Connection between Euston Laybye Siding and Kings Cross Connecting Loop". It shows a proposed extension of the siding to connect to new points about halfway along the length of the Northern - Piccadilly link tunnel. This was never implemented as far as I'm aware.
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Apr 19, 2023 8:42:42 GMT
The link was built between the Euston City. Siding to connect with the Piccadilly Line, that’s how trains transfer from line to another as to the date this was done it is above my pay grade.
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Post by burkitt on Apr 19, 2023 11:53:59 GMT
Indeed there is a link between the Northern and the Piccadilly, but the siding it connects to is the remnants of what was the northbound Northern tracks until Euston was reconfigured for the Victoria line. Here's a diagram showing the various layouts to the best of my understanding.  |
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Apr 19, 2023 14:50:17 GMT
You have left off the emergency crossover that was installed on the Piccadilly Line during WW2.
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Post by programmes1 on Apr 19, 2023 17:52:11 GMT
You have left off the emergency crossover that was installed on the Piccadilly Line during WW2. The crossover on the Piccadilly line was installed in November1956 not WW2 in connection with the special tunnel works. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 19, 2023 20:59:28 GMT
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Post by programmes1 on Apr 20, 2023 4:33:46 GMT
Jimbo, That is correct but it only connected to the eastbound Piccadilly line and trains either ran to York Road/Wood Green/Arnos Grove to crossover to the westbound line. The special tunnel works was carried out during the mid 1950s at a number of locations. Second Supplement to Traffic Circular 46 1956 shows the alterations. |
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Tom
Administrator
Signalfel?
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Post by Tom on Apr 20, 2023 18:43:10 GMT
I might be wrong but I think jimbo was enquiring about what the 'Special Tunnel Works' were. |
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Post by programmes1 on Apr 21, 2023 5:31:00 GMT
I might be wrong but I think jimbo was enquiring about what the 'Special Tunnel Works' were. Sorry Tom I thought Jimbo was trying to get some input from others I know you know what special tunnel works was. There is a thread about special tunnel works have tried putting a link but not working for me. See 15th November 2006 in signalling and track. Here's the Special Tunnel Works thread - Tom |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 21, 2023 5:47:52 GMT
The crossover on the Piccadilly line was installed in November1956 not WW2 in connection with the special tunnel works. Thanks programmes1 link found, although I see no connection between crossover and special tunnel works, except the timing! |
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Post by programmes1 on Apr 21, 2023 9:47:35 GMT
Thanks programmes1 link found, although I see no connection between crossover and special tunnel works, except the timing! Jimbo, The special tunnel works connected with the installation of floodgates at various locations as shown in the link to the thread. If you think about it before the crossover was installed the nearest one was at York Road where the signal box was open as required, which if they had to operate the floodgates at Russell Square there could be a number of trains in the tunnel. Also having a crossover at Kings Cross made more sense as people could transfer to other lines. As I said the crossover was commissioned in 1956 being worked locally until the Northern line signal box took over the control and then in 1962 control went to Leicester Square regulating room with control being shared between there and Covent Garden signal box and York Road signal box closed in 1964! There are two references about the special tunnel works, the first is the LT photographic collection which has a number of photos showing construction work at Kings Cross and the second is a file at the National Archives at Kew. I’m sure you would find the file at Kew very interesting so if you get a chance to go to the National Archives it would be worthwhile. |
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Post by jimbo on Apr 22, 2023 0:48:40 GMT
I've now had a chance to look at the archive drawings showing the siding at Euston. A drawing from 15/2/1907 titled "City and South London Railway Euston Extension - Details of Buffer Stops at Euston" shows the design of the buffers in the loco spur, siding, and traverser chamber. The drawing of the loco spur and siding buffers is captioned "Occurs in 131'3/4'' Siding and Engine Spur" A later drawing titled "City and South London Rly - Siding at Euston Station" from 1930 shows the siding only. Notes on it state: 365' Buffer to Block Joint 359'6'' Length of a seven car train 5'6'' Margin to end of train Note - The overall length of the New Stock (1930) is 371ft for a seven car train Note - Buffer Stops shewn in place of former Buffer Beams, dimensions altered accordingly and drawing No altered from "B" to "C" 10.12.30 A drawing from 12-11-1928 titled "C.&.S.L.R. Euston Siding - Proposed Hydraulic Buffer" shows the details of the buffer mentioned above. Notes on it state: Length of Siding 364'5'' Length of 7 Cars 354'6'' Overall Margin 4'11'' A drawing from 11-7-1928 titled "City Line - Euston Siding" shows the siding with the original simple buffer beam at the end. The length was originally given as 371'5'', but this has been crossed out and replaced with 403' and initialled JAH 13/10/50 It is difficult to know to what extent the works shown in the drawings were implemented in the form originally proposed. But I think it's fair to conclude the siding was extended at least once, and possibly multiple times during its life. Finally, a drawing from 18-10-1938 is titled "Proposed Connection between Euston Laybye Siding and Kings Cross Connecting Loop". It shows a proposed extension of the siding to connect to new points about halfway along the length of the Northern - Piccadilly link tunnel. This was never implemented as far as I'm aware. So it seems that Euston siding once would take a short C&SLR train, but was lengthened on reconstruction to fit one standard stock train. Of course, the train could exceed the length to block joint providing that the first wheel-set was behind it. The siding at Angel was already long enough for 4 C&SLR trains or 2 standard stock trains, so was probably not lengthened at that time. I wonder, were two trains scheduled to stable there at any time? Underground News had a summary of LT tube line timetables back in the late 1980s if anyone has access to them (Northern Line in April to July 1990 per index). |
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Post by burkitt on Apr 22, 2023 20:25:41 GMT
Yes I think that's likely. Though it's odd that the seemingly-lengthened siding seems to have retained the original simple buffer beam until the hydraulic buffer was installed around 1930.
It's intriguing that the 1907 drawing gives the siding length as 131ft, compared with the Underground News article you've quoted giving the length as 210ft. The siding could have been built from the start to the greater length - some of the other drawings in the archive show early proposals and do not reflect what was actually built. Or maybe it was extended during the loco and coaches era, then again during the 1922-4 reconstruction?
The only way to be sure would be to get access and examine the tunnel rings, and even that isn't infallible given older rings were often taken from stockpiles or reclaimed during other projects.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 15, 2024 0:28:46 GMT
I've just come across the Hidden London Hangouts visit to Angel which shows an undated C&SLR plan at 10:13 with the siding marked as 870ft, I think. The siding seems to be blocked close to the platform to allow the realigned northbound track to reach the new platform, and trains are seen to curve away from the old tunnel to enter the former siding tunnel in the distance. With no access to the operating railway, no attempt is made to establish if the far end of the siding tunnel remains untouched.
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Post by jimbo on Jan 22, 2024 10:19:10 GMT
The current Underground News at p.83 has a photo taken from the far end of the abandoned northbound tunnel showing the new step-plate junction connecting into the former Angel siding. There is no sign of an abandoned end to the siding, so it seems that the connection was made to the stub end of the siding, over two train lengths from the platform. The former siding is therefore the route of the new northbound line, and the only abandoned part of the siding is the short section close to the former platform. It is noted that the former siding was last scheduled for use in 1940 and was abandoned in January 1959.
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