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Post by Dstock7080 on Jun 29, 2023 20:30:22 GMT
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Post by xtmw on Aug 18, 2023 1:03:37 GMT
The TfL website is now saying that the Bakerloo Line closure has been pushed to Friday 18th August |
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Post by selbiehouse on Aug 18, 2023 16:54:15 GMT
I traveled in and out of Euston by LNWR several times this week. There was a lot of activity on the LO/Bakerloo. Three LU engineers trains between Kensal Green and Queens Park involving six LU battery locos.
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Post by chris11256 on Aug 18, 2023 17:37:54 GMT
I saw a TikTok from a Bakerloo line driver yesterday saying that the current rails were still absent north of Queens Park.
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Post by jimbo on Aug 18, 2023 20:40:12 GMT
Why has this line seen so much extensive works in recent times? Has it been allowed to seriously decay compared to others, and if so then why? Or is it just easier to shut this section down? Is it more expendable than others?
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Post by bigvern on Aug 18, 2023 21:10:54 GMT
The old DC lines Euston to Watford had 60ft rails installed and the class 501 used to dip the rail joints as wheelbase was same a rail lengths over the years the rails had been changed to welded rails, however with little replacement of sleepers being that the line is 4th rail electrified so wooden sleepers were used, these are now being replaced with concrete.
the line had been re signalled in past 20 years but with little increase in overlaps, the original ballast had become compacted over the years and the track didn't move much, so some reballasting is taking place. The 4th rail was never fully removed north of Harrow and even now it may be in place. So legacy of maintaining 4th rail wasn't a BR thing.
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Post by lukeo on Aug 19, 2023 10:41:28 GMT
Bakerloo line remains shut to Harrow & Wealdstone, and frustratingly TfL are not saying whether it will open today at all.
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 19, 2023 11:47:05 GMT
at 0500 yesterday a '24hr delay' was expected but this has stretched further.
Reduced Bakerloo service operating as no access to Stonebridge Park depot.
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Post by spsmiler on Aug 19, 2023 20:39:20 GMT
Why has this line seen so much extensive works in recent times? Has it been allowed to seriously decay compared to others, and if so then why? Or is it just easier to shut this section down? Is it more expendable than others? Possibly, I recall reading news reports about the shockingly poor nature of (part of) the trackbed when some BR lines in Manchester were converted for the Metrolink light rail system. So, maybe (but hopefully not) there are issues on the Watford DC that need urgent remedial action 'before they become a problem'. Maybe its better that we do not know everything. |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 20, 2023 7:21:42 GMT
Many points and signals failing after the handover yesterday morning, points secured to allow LO services to be maintained and Bakerloo services had to reverse at Queens Park.
Bakerloo services resumed this morning.
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Post by xtmw on Aug 20, 2023 23:51:10 GMT
Many points and signals failing after the handover yesterday morning, points secured to allow LO services to be maintained and Bakerloo services had to reverse at Queens Park. Have points been renewed during the Bakerloo / LO closure period? |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 21, 2023 6:47:27 GMT
No pointwork was changed, however connections to signalling equipment wasn’t possible for start of service.
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Post by A60stock on Aug 21, 2023 8:49:41 GMT
What's going on today? Bakerloo seems to be fine but the Watford DC is only running upto Willesden Junction (using the centre platform to reverse I assume?)
What work are they doing now that allows the Bakerloo to continue but not the Watford DC?
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Post by Chris L on Aug 21, 2023 9:13:25 GMT
What's going on today? Bakerloo seems to be fine but the Watford DC is only running upto Willesden Junction (using the centre platform to reverse I assume?) What work are they doing now that allows the Bakerloo to continue but not the Watford DC? That is a planned closure of London Overground this week. London North Western Railway services will continue to serve Euston, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushey and Watford Junction. In addition, they will call at Wembley Central on Monday to Friday. Southern services will call at Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone and Watford |
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Post by Dstock7080 on Aug 21, 2023 9:39:54 GMT
What work are they doing now that allows the Bakerloo to continue but not the Watford DC? The first post in this thread hopefully details the work being undertaken |
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Post by taylor on Aug 23, 2023 20:08:41 GMT
As work continues this week north of Harrow and Wealdstone, I doubt the turn-back at Harrow could be used to reverse the LO service. Also, if the crossovers at Wembley Central and Harrow have been upgraded as part of the works described, it could be more a matter of trying to integrate a truncated LO northbound service back into the southbound flow with due respect to duty and pathing constraints. Thus, on the surface, it appears to me that the only realistic reversing point left for LO trains is Willesden Junction platform 2.
However, I do feel that, 'London Overground closed between Willesden Junction and Watford Junction' will mislead some passengers to thinking the whole physical line is closed between those points, when in fact it's the services which cannot operate over a certain portion, which the Bakerloo trains (with the most comfortable transverse seats on the network!) can operate. Better would be, 'London Overground services will run between Euston and Willesden Junction. Passengers for stations north of Willesden Junction should take the Bakerloo Line to Harrow and Wealdstone and relacement bus service from there to Watford Junction if necessary.' I think it is always better to draw attention to what is working and link those statements to advice regarding access to stations that cannot be reached without changing services.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 2, 2023 7:25:33 GMT
My question is how did these engineers' trains get between Ruislip depot and Willesden Junction on the Bakerloo Line? This is in connection with a possible transfer route for the new Picc trains if the Bakerloo in time operates the same type. link |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 2, 2023 13:10:51 GMT
There are three possible routes I can see:
1. Met-Jubilee-Bakerloo (reverse at Baker Street)
2. Met to Harrow-Chiltern to Neasden Junction-Dudding Hill Line to either Acton Canal Wharf Junction or Acton Wells Junction (reverse)-West Coast Main Line (at Willesden No. 7 Junction or West London Junction respectively)
3. Ruislip transfer siding (reverse)-Chiltern to Neasden South Junction then as option 2.
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Post by dpr on Oct 2, 2023 15:23:11 GMT
They did indeed come across at Baker St from the Jub to the Bakerloo, then down to Lambeth to reverse.
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Post by jimbo on Oct 2, 2023 20:51:51 GMT
Many thanks but, as already pointed out, 24TS plus two locos for CBTC/TBTC would be overlength for that route, so would have to consider one of @chris M alternatives.
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Post by d7666 on Oct 2, 2023 21:21:22 GMT
There are three possible routes I can see: 1. Met-Jubilee-Bakerloo (reverse at Baker Street) 2. Met to Harrow-Chiltern to Neasden Junction-Dudding Hill Line to either Acton Canal Wharf Junction or Acton Wells Junction (reverse)-West Coast Main Line (at Willesden No. 7 Junction or West London Junction respectively) 3. Ruislip transfer siding (reverse)-Chiltern to Neasden South Junction then as option 2. Or. If deliver squadron fleet direct from Goole to Stonebridge, via the easiest WCML to DC to Bakerloo connections, i.e. Watford Junction or via Euston or anywhere else that works. No CBTC. No TBTC. I am fully aware of tradition of recent years has been deliver to Ruislip, but that can't be cast in stone for eternity, and nothing has come from Siemens before, they may have their own way, and IMHO ".... but we have always done it that way" is a perfect reason to change it. Else people embed things that do not require embedding. |
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Post by Chris M on Oct 2, 2023 23:51:04 GMT
The question I was answering was how did these engineers' trains get between Ruislip depot and Willesden Junction on the Bakerloo Line? If you're asking about where a new fleet could be delivered to, then it doesn't have to be Ruislip but if it is somewhere else it needs to reachable by the mainline locomotives hauling them (which immediately rules out London Road Depot) and also needs to have the space and track layout available for the whole consist to berth clear of other lines, the locos to detach and for at least one to run around the train, couple up to its partner and then depart. There is likely also the requirement for some sort of commissioning onto LU's infrastructure and systems. Does Stonebridge have those facilities? If not, could they be built? I don't know the answer to either question. Also, looking at Carto Metro getting to Stonebridge isn't as simple as it sounds. The only connection to the Watford DC/Bakerloo north of Stonebridge is a single connection from the Up Fast line at Watford Junction, with no nearby connection shown to get there without two reversing moves (something it isn't going to be easy to find capacity to do on a regular basis). The next location is via the connection to the North London Line at Willesden Junction and reverse in the Kensal Green Turnout, but I'm not certain that's long enough (and paths on the North London Line are not exactly ten a penny). The next option is via Willesden TMD, which on carto.metro looks feasible in terms of physical track layout but I have no idea about signalling, etc. It also strikes me that there is a lot of opportunity in a depot environment for the there to be a lot of stuff that a tube gauge train could be foul of. South of there you're basically looking at reversing in Euston platforms - again not exactly part of the railway overflowing with spare capacity. I'm not saying it can't or won't be done, just that it's not as straightforward as it might seem at first glance. |
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Post by d7666 on Oct 3, 2023 12:48:13 GMT
somewhere else it needs to reachable by the mainline locomotives hauling them (which immediately rules out London Road Depot) and also needs to have the space and track layout available for the whole consist to berth clear of other lines, the locos to detach and for at least one to run around the train, couple up to its partner and then depart. There is likely also the requirement for some sort of commissioning onto LU's infrastructure and systems. Does Stonebridge have those facilities? If not, could they be built? I don't know the answer to either question. Also, looking at Carto Metro getting to Stonebridge isn't as simple as it sounds. The only connection to the Watford DC/Bakerloo north of Stonebridge is a single connection from the Up Fast line at Watford Junction, with no nearby connection shown to get there without two reversing moves (something it isn't going to be easy to find capacity to do on a regular basis). The next location is via the connection to the North London Line at Willesden Junction and reverse in the Kensal Green Turnout, but I'm not certain that's long enough (and paths on the North London Line are not exactly ten a penny). The next option is via Willesden TMD, which on carto.metro looks feasible in terms of physical track layout but I have no idea about signalling, etc. It also strikes me that there is a lot of opportunity in a depot environment for the there to be a lot of stuff that a tube gauge train could be foul of. South of there you're basically looking at reversing in Euston platforms - again not exactly part of the railway overflowing with spare capacity. The tube stock won't really be out of gauge since the things are being delivered via main lines anyway, and the stock itself and or whatever barrier wagons if any involved will be cleared, all that is then left is any unique route specific issues on the DC twixt Euston and Queens Park / Kilburn High Road. Euston pretty sure can spare an odd path once a day especially if LO yield somewhere. Main line loco hauled into Euston; attach battery locos at the country end, battery loco northbound on battery on the DC to Kilburn High Road / Queens Park thence electric; a.n.other battery loco can then shunt the arrival in doing so release those that have worked inwards. Remove scrap 72TS by reversal of that. No TBTC. No CBTC. No CLATP. Does not take main line locos into Stonebridge. Just might need the battery locos re-certifying on NR (IIMU they have lapsed / changed at refurbishment). I was only considering delivery. Commissioning may be different. However, based on main line, Siemens tends to do much commissioning before delivery e.g. Thameslink 700s got a whirl round Wildenrath first. Can't suggest at the moment where that could be done with NTFL. But then where is LU going to test NTFL anyway; by the time we get into squadron delivery, there will be some obstruction somewhere by one of CBTC TBTC or CLATP if using Ruislip. I have no ideas either way on any of this, just suggestions and think outside the box. |
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Post by spsmiler on Oct 3, 2023 13:15:52 GMT
Hainault - Woodford has plenty of paths, as does Harrow OTH - Moor Park main line. That section of the Central line will likely need a different signalling system overlaid on it, just as happened on the Victoria line.
(said whilst thinking so far outside the box that I might be on Mars)
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Post by andypurk on Oct 4, 2023 11:55:14 GMT
The question I was answering was how did these engineers' trains get between Ruislip depot and Willesden Junction on the Bakerloo Line? If you're asking about where a new fleet could be delivered to, then it doesn't have to be Ruislip but if it is somewhere else it needs to reachable by the mainline locomotives hauling them (which immediately rules out London Road Depot) and also needs to have the space and track layout available for the whole consist to berth clear of other lines, the locos to detach and for at least one to run around the train, couple up to its partner and then depart. There is likely also the requirement for some sort of commissioning onto LU's infrastructure and systems. Does Stonebridge have those facilities? If not, could they be built? I don't know the answer to either question. Also, looking at Carto Metro getting to Stonebridge isn't as simple as it sounds. The only connection to the Watford DC/Bakerloo north of Stonebridge is a single connection from the Up Fast line at Watford Junction, with no nearby connection shown to get there without two reversing moves (something it isn't going to be easy to find capacity to do on a regular basis). The next location is via the connection to the North London Line at Willesden Junction and reverse in the Kensal Green Turnout, but I'm not certain that's long enough (and paths on the North London Line are not exactly ten a penny). The next option is via Willesden TMD, which on carto.metro looks feasible in terms of physical track layout but I have no idea about signalling, etc. It also strikes me that there is a lot of opportunity in a depot environment for the there to be a lot of stuff that a tube gauge train could be foul of. South of there you're basically looking at reversing in Euston platforms - again not exactly part of the railway overflowing with spare capacity. I'm not saying it can't or won't be done, just that it's not as straightforward as it might seem at first glance. The recent reinstallation of Watford North Junction has added a crossover to allow trains from the north to access Platform 6 at Watford Junction, so potentially this connection is easier than it was but certainly not during daytime as the fast line needs to be used from Bourne End Junction which is north of Hemel Hempstead. I have wondered whether, if delivery was going to be direct to Stonebridge Park, it could be via Willesden Depot (WN). WN can be accessed from the slow lines, from both directions and at both the north and south ends (either directly or via the TMD Loop). This would allow a swap to battery locos for the short trip without their running on the mainline. Of course LO depot access would need to be maintained over the DC Arr/Dep line. Plenty of non-LO units are seen in WN depot, at the moment including C2C class 720s and these are longer than any new Underground stock would be. |
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