Gate stock

[cfmrc]

Are there any reference works giving information on the gate stock? I am particularly interested in how the sets were made up and used in the 1920s on the Piccadilly Line.

Tim

[burkitt]

I believe Piers Connor's 23-part series "The London Electric Train", published in the London Underground Railway Society's Underground News from October 2015 - August 2017, is the most comprehensive work on the gate stock.
A partial selection of these articles are available from the LURS society website link - I don't know whether the information you're after will be in one of them. 
I have the full series in print copies of the journal, but it will be late tomorrow or next week before I get a chance to have a look through them and see what's in there regarding the gate stock in that period.
There is also "Tube Trains Under London" by J Graeme Bruce, which is also on my bookshelves so I can check that too.

[cfmrc]

Many thanks for looking. After I posted I found a Piers Connor article on the LURS web site. It is very useful. The Tube Trains Under London book is very cheap, so I will buy it if it has anything useful in it.

I have works drawings of all the various gate stock varieties, but would really like to know if they ran in short formation on the Piccadilly line in the 20s. If so, what was the makeup? Would the Control Trailer have been used for driving on the line? As this is a major scratch building / etching exercise short trains are good!

Tim

[metman]

Yes they would have run in shorter trains off peak. The pre-1938 stock also ran in short formations until 1936. I think I read that the Piccadilly gate stock operated in 6 car trains in a 3+3 formation. This was copied by the 1920 tube stock (the first tube stock with air doors using converted gate stock motor coaches) and also the pre-1938 stock as well. The gate stock was gone by 1930.

I’m sure the formations varied though so try and get hold of a working timetable from the 1920s. The control trailers were driven from open platforms so whilst they were in tunnel much of the time it can’t have been much fun for the motorman!

[burkitt]

Having read through the relevant bits of the Piers Connor series in Underground News, there unfortunately isn't much by way of specifics on the formation of the gate stock on the Picc in its latter years.
He does state that "Generally, over the LER, you might get anything from a 2 car Motor-Control Trailer train up to a full 6 car formation, depending on availability and the time of day." Five cars is mentioned as a common length in peak hours on the Picc, owing to many trailers having been transferred to the other lines.
By 1927 the Piccadilly had a gate stock fleet of 64 motor cars, 32 control trailers, and 49 trailers, so all sorts of permutations were definitely possible.
It was assumed 20% of motor cars and 10% of trailers would be undergoing maintenance at any one time. This fleet therefore permits a peak provision of roughly twenty five trains, each in a motor-trailer-control trailer-trailer-motor formation.

From 1914, some of the control trailers had more enclosed cab ends installed in place of the totally open gates, giving more protection for the driver.



The exact number of control trailers with these cabs, and their distribution across the lines, is not known.

It is known that 10 Piccadilly control trailers were fitted with partially enclosed cabs at both ends in 1914, permitting greater operational flexibility.

 

[brigham]

Nov 19, 2023 18:57:05 GMT metman said:

The control trailers were driven from open platforms so whilst they were in tunnel much of the time it can’t have been much fun for the motorman!

Driving from the 'uncoupling' end would have been the highlight of my day. The first thing I thought when I saw the well-known illustration was 'WOW! I want to do that'.

There again, as a kid I wanted to be that bloke who drove new bus chassis up the A1 to Northern Coachworks.

[cfmrc]

Could someone suggest what livery the gate stock would have carried in the early 1920s?

Thank you
Tim

[burkitt]

I can look for a proper reference later, but I believe the gate stock on the Piccadilly and Hampstead tubes wore an overall dark red-brown livery throughout their lives. The Bakerloo trains had cream window surrounds.

[cfmrc]

That would tally with the preserved / rebuilt section at Acton.
Effectively a crimson lake on the brown side (they often are). There is evidence of lining out in some pictures.

Tim

[burkitt]

Indeed, after posting it occurred to me the preserved car end is probably as good a reference as any.

Frustratingly I have misplaced the copy of Underground News which mentions the livery colour for the gate stock - hopefully it will emerge when I sort out my library over Christmas.

However Ernest F Carter's "Britain's Railway Liveries 1825-1948", published 1952, has this to say on the Piccadilly gate stock:

"Coaches were "Derby" red ("Midland" red), with "GNP & B" on the centre panels of the sides in gold. Coach numbers were in gold serif figures at each end of the coaches."

I'm not entirely sure if his interpretation of the colour though, as I'd thought Midland red was a rather brighter shade.

[cfmrc]

Midland red is crimson lake - I don’t think Carter would be referring to the bus company. The colour can appear quite dull and it definitely can carry a brown hue; it is transformed once it is lined out with straw and black.

Tim

[roythebus]

Crimson and maroon colours do turn brown over a period of a few years. I have a preserved GS bus in maroon livery. When I had to repaint a front wing following some minor accident damage the fresh maroon paint looked very crimson compared to the dull brown of the rest of the bus. I used the same tin of paint!

[burkitt]

I've now found the copy of Underground News with the details of the gate stock livery, so here is what Piers Connor has to say on the matter:

"The basic exterior colour scheme for the original Bakerloo fleet was a two-tone livery, with cream above the waist and a deep maroon below that was variously referred to as "Derby red", "engine lake" or "dark maroon". Quite what any of these meant is difficult to determine now but I think the "Derby red" was a bit too light a shade, if the current perception of the Midland Railway's red is considered. The "lake" in "engine lake" comes from the way in which the pigment is manufactured to give the colour.

It's nothing to do with water. The "dark maroon" seems to be close to what we might see today on the preserved example of the Underground's sleet locomotives. It was applied to service vehicles in the 1950s and onwards before the ubiquitous yellow peril took over.

The Bakerloo's colour scheme went all around the car body including the gated ends but it wasn't applied to the Piccadilly and Hampstead fleets, doubtless because of cost. These were all-maroon. Only the two British-built trailer cars delivered to the Piccadilly Line were in the two-tone scheme but that didn't cover the car ends. (These cars never entered passenger service)

Once numbers and lettering were applied, cars were generally covered with several coats of clear varnish to protect the paint finish."