Eastern end of the District Line in the 1930s question

[silenthunter]

Just saw a 1935 photograph of Hornchurch advertising "LMS Electrics", but the LMS never had any electric trains on that line; just the LU ones. Why would they advertise the service that way?

[brigham]

I'm guessing that it refers to the LMS electrification of the London, Tilbury and Southend line.

[revupminster]

All the stations Upney-Upminster Bridge were built and staffed by the LMS. I have the picture in Peter Kay's authoritative history of LT&SR and Hornchurch was the only station to have this sign. He writes that District or Underground were seemingly not mentionable even when an electric service was being advertised.

There is a map of Hornchurch showing an electrified siding west of the station between the District and LT&SR tracks to allow District line trains to reverse (never used) which also acted as a refuge siding for LMS goods trains. All taken out in the LT&SR resignalling of 1961.

Electrification came much later with 1500v dc overhead system (already becoming obsolete) in the late 50s although Fenchurch -Stratford had already been electrified to meet with the Eastern Region railways.

[jimbo]

Harsig has the connection in 1936 but not in 1960.

[spsmiler]

Feb 15, 2024 9:42:39 GMT revupminster said:

Electrification came much later with 1500v dc overhead system (already becoming obsolete) in the late 50s although Fenchurch -Stratford had already been electrified to meet with the Eastern Region railways.

1500v dc? Are you sure?

The LNER route from Fenchurch Street and Liverpool Street through Stratford was that voltage but I thought that the LMS route via Barking was 25kV AC from the start? (possibly also 6.25kV AC at the London end)

[norbitonflyer]

Feb 15, 2024 8:50:00 GMT brigham said:

I'm guessing that it refers to the LMS electrification of the London, Tilbury and Southend line.

That line was not electrified until long after the LMS ceased to exist - at least, not beyond Upminster. However, the DC electrification of what is now the District Line was a joint venturen between the Underground and the LTSR (to Barking in 1908) and the LMS (to Upminster in 1932)

[etr220]

The line into Fenchurch Street was GER (leased from the London & Blackwall), so LNER, with the LT&SR (LMSR) having running powers, and was electrified from Bow Junction into F St as part of the electrification to Shenfield at 1500v dc, pre war project but not opened until 1949. The original project included shuttle trains from Stratford into Fenchuch St (for which bay platforms were provided for at Stratford - one was eventually used for the DLR), but in the event it was only used for diversions. Converted to ac in 1960 (originally 6.25kV), but the LTS electrification was a year or two later, only then did F St see a regular electric service. Although mainly 25kV, part was 6.25kV, both in the London area, but also through Southend (all this later converted to 25kV)

The Whitechapell and Bow was LT&S-MDR joint; beyond Campbell Road Junction (where it ended and joined the LT&S) it was wholly an LT&S/Midland/LMS line, with (and I am not sure of the details) MDR/LPTB trains working on, eventually to Upminster over aditional, electrified (to MDR standards) lines (but still LT&S/LMS - with LTS/LMS signalling): as I understand it, from a legal perspective, over this section they were providing an LT&S/Midland/LMS service, and some of the rolling stock was LMS owned, although forming part of the LPTB District fleet.

The tracks used by District trains were only transferred to LT after 1948, and not completley segregated from BR ones until (IIRC) sometime in the 1960s, as the need for interworking fell away.

[roythebus]

Some of the Q stock had LMS ownership plates on the solebars and on the door treadplates. All the connections had been taken out by 1970, but there were crossings at the May & Baker factory at West Ham, another near Dagenham and a set of diamond crossings ar the west end of Upminster to enable BR trains to get from the lTSR to Romford.

[DWS]

The May and Baker factory was at Dagenham East, the ground frame on the LTSR down line was released by Barking LT signal cabin. West Ham had a number of factories but after the District Line was re signalled by the LTE no connections with factories in the West Ham area remained.