Golders Green northbound loop

[metrofan]

Today it was observed that a train that seemed to be in the path of the usual train 23 was shown as Out Of Service at Hampstead. By taking the previous train to Golders Green this train was observed using the crossover straight out of the tunnel to access road 26 and then Platform 5. It then returned via road 26 and 27 to enter the depot.

Is the route not signalled for passenger movement, was that why it was out of service at Hampstead and is that the route while the services are terminating at Golders Green?

I am guessing it did not go into Platform 3 as it would take time to check it was empty before going to the depot.

[Tom]

I'm not a Golders Green expert but I thought it was ok for passenger moves. It might have been done out of service for a number of operational reasons, or for (believe it or not) passenger convenience, to prevent a trainload of passengers having to fight their way across to another platform.

I've known similar things happen at places like Queen's Park in the past.

[metrofan]

Apr 5, 2024 19:05:30 GMT Tom said:

I'm not a Golders Green expert but I thought it was ok for passenger moves. It might have been done out of service for a number of operational reasons, or for (believe it or not) passenger convenience, to prevent a trainload of passengers having to fight their way across to another platform.

I've known similar things happen at places like Queen's Park in the past.

Makes sense, but of course all trains terminate at Golders Green at the moment, so it could be that Platforms 4 and 5 are 'locked' out of use.

[tut]

Apr 5, 2024 19:05:30 GMT Tom said:

I'm not a Golders Green expert but I thought it was ok for passenger moves. It might have been done out of service for a number of operational reasons, or for (believe it or not) passenger convenience, to prevent a trainload of passengers having to fight their way across to another platform.

I've known similar things happen at places like Queen's Park in the past.

The question title mentions the Northbound Loop which certainly used to be a colour light move. I don't know whether it still is allowed for passengers but it seems likely.

The question body however says that the train went straight to road No. 26 and thence to platform 5. (Platform 5 of course cannot be accessed form the Northbound Loop).

Historically Northbound Main to No. 26 Road and No. 26 Road to No. 23 Road (Platform 5) were both signalled by shunt signals and I believe when TBTC was installed they did not generally trouble themselves to convert historically non-passenger moves to passenger. E.g. I believe South to North from East Finchley Platform 3 is still not possible in passenger service.

[Dstock7080]

Northern Line Information Book:
Reversing North to South in ATO or PM via platform 5
1. Detrain at Hampstead (if necessary)
2. Check your destination on the TOD (GGN-26)
3. When the target point advances, proceed to 26 road
4. Check your destination on the TOD (GGN)
5. When target point advances, proceed into platform
6. Shut down, change ends.

[metrofan]

Thanks for the replies.

[scheduler]

The timetable for the terminate service at GOG laid out all trains, including those going out of service, to reverse in 2 and 3 with stepping-back on all trains, including trains going to the depot. Operationally it was found that trains for depot tipping out in GOG 2 and 3 and proceeding to the depot was very confusing for passengers. So line operations decided to instruct the trains going to depot tip out at Hampstead and do the shunt via 26 road into platform 5 in order to do their step back, with platform 5 being blocked out of use for passengers. Any trains that it was decided to not step back can just reverse in 26 siding. The operation of the timetable during the closure north of GOG has been hampered by a forest of TSRs across the line.

[jimbo]

Are the TSRs caused by track recording train problems, as on the Central Line? I thought the problem was with TRT reading Central Line signalling, but perhaps not since Northern Line system is different.

[xtmw]

The TSRs on the Central Line were due to the TRV equipment being faulty. The TRV itself is fine, it's the actual monitoring equipment which is giving everyone a headache.

As said before, they can't guarantee the track is defect free/poses a risk of derailment so TSRs are placed as a precaution. Data hasn't been collected from the Northern Line, therefore, TSRs were implemented.

[superteacher]

Is it no longer possible to access the depot direct from Hampstead?

[Dstock7080]

Directly from signal GGN003 at the tunnel mouth.

[towerman]

Are the sdgs between NB & SB roads still in situ?Used to stable trains on them overnight.

[Dstock7080]

Yes 24Rd 25Rd and ‘loop’ remain

[towerman]

Do you think they’ll ever be used again if service levels are ever increased in the future?

[towerman]

If I remember correctly SB loop was also known as 26rd.

[jimbo]

Expectation is that the Northern Line will go to 30tph+ with new trains at some time, so not likely to give up any current track in the meantime. Will need plenty more stabling then!

[towerman]

Used to hate prepping trains on those roads,you had less that an hour to prep four trains before traction current went off.

[Alight]

I've seen planned engineering work a year so ago see all NB trains terminated at Hampstead, and I believe in that instance the trains ran empty past the crossover north of Hampstead and then reversed via the crossover to the Hampstead SB platform. I believe this was due to the traction current beint off between GG and Edgware, meaning it was not possible to terminate at the former.

Incidentally, I still didn't get any answers in the Victoria line part of the forum as to why I was once on a Finsbury Park terminator, which tipped out and then proceeded empty on the northbound. The CSAs were poised ready for us on the platform and they had more of this kind to come. I took the next train, which was bound for Walthamstow. My question was similar to this one but the difference is Golders Green has a loop, whereas the Victoria line train would have had to pass the platforms at Seven Sisters in order to get to the depot (where presumably it was heading) so why not tip out at SS rather than the hassle of FB.

[Dstock7080]

Hampstead does have a crossover 6A/6B to the north of the station, there is a rail gap on the approach to Golders Green.

Mod comment Dstock7080: ps. your post regarding Seven Sisters was replied to by seaeagle approximately 2hours later.

[Alight]

Apr 14, 2024 4:59:22 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Hampstead does have a crossover 6A/6B to the north of the station, there is a rail gap on the approach to Golders Green.

That's it!

Mod comment Dstock7080: ps. your post regarding Seven Sisters was replied to by seaeagle approximately 2hours later.

Sorry, I did receive some responses such as that from Seaeagle, but I meant not receiving "any answers" in the sense the mystery remained unsolved. I don't want to go off topic any further, but I did find it an interesting comparison to Hampstead, which clearly does have more flexibility farther ahead.