Epping Ongar Branch pre 1957- closure

[ongarparknride]

Hi folks,

I hope I'm not breaching site "netiquette" as I'm a newby, but mention thread here:

districtdave.proboards39.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=intros&thread=1169079046&page=1

to introduce myself, with mentioning a special interest in this branch.

Perhaps having introduced myself on the "newbie" thread, anyone interested in replying re: my particular interests in this Branch of the Central should perhaps best appear on this thread and heading? To avoid repetition, the above thread gives a bit more info about my particular interests in this sadly defunct branch.

To do a really proper job, perhaps I should go on to the Met thread and mourn the closure of Brill.

cheers,
OngarParkNRide

[Deleted]

Well your line is indeed running again.

www.eorailway.co.uk

I have read alot of the history of the line and have been a volunteer there for two years.

But ask some questions if you wish about whats happening down there

Cheers
Jim

[ongarparknride]

Hi Jim,

I keep in touch with the Official website, and congratulate you and all the other folks who have put so much effort into the restoration.

The history of the line raises a couple of points I've wondered about.

There is one possibly rather obscure point I've not found out very much about. It appears all structures (apart from, ahem, the M11) were capable of double tracking had demand permitted. However I recollect reading somewhere there was a proposal to extend north of Ongar generally towards Braintree specifically as possible service to East Anglian RAF Airfields villages around early WW2 days. With local goods trains still in demand, it seemed credible when I read it, but have never acquired or got around to looking at a 1935 era overall rail map to see existing rail routes in the area in case perhaps the Leyton/Newbury Park main line connections would indeed have provided additional back-up routes and access.

I believe there was at some time a proposed extension branch from Debden to Abridge as well I've seen a mention of, but does not appear to have been included in the New Works and electrification plans.

I share the regrets I am sure the EOR have that Epping never qualified for a third platform. Had it done so, severing the track at Coopersale might not have been necessary.

There seems no prospect LUR (is that what they are called this month?) will give up a platform for joint running in view of terminus and operations until they decide to close down east from Loughton as being unprofitable.

That of course would give the EOR easy access to the M11, and transfer to the Central Line.

I think the implications of this have just added many tens of millions of pounds to local values.....

Cheers,
OngarParkNRide

[Deleted]

Well the M11 bridge will not take double track for sure, we can say that.
Plus you have every other bridge on the line to rebuild e.t.c

Our running line stops around 500 yrds from epping, not coopersale. We just run there for the time being due to the steepness of the track as our DMU doesn't have it's 4th engine working yet. Sometime in the future maybe will getting it running and head down to our epping.

But transfering back to the central line in tfl's eyes wouldn't be worth it.

The amount of money put in for double tracking and reconstruction of the bridges would out way providing the service.

LUL will not give us any access to Epping station. due to the the H&S stuff they have going on.

If someone bought the line and had a heap of money to spend on a platform that could be constructed our end and a walkway provided. Great stuff!!

But at the moment all of this is a dream.

EOR as it stands is a heritage railway and we would like it put back to it's GER days in the distant future.

Will see.

Jim

[Deleted]

May i add the original plans were to double track to Chelmsford. Until the GER mainline came about.

[Chris M]

Having visited Epping station in the daylight precisely once*, I don't recall there being space for anything other than an end-on connection between the Central Line and EOR?

(*I have ended up there in the dark after falling asleep en route to Debden though!)

[ongarparknride]

Hiya again Jim.

Thank you very much for your replies. Please let's keep talking.

Can you suggest preferably www links, or books I can request from the public library re: the double track to Chelmsford? From your comment "until the GER mainline came about", methinks we are talking about the original Acts of Parliament like around the 19860's or so for the original requesting Act for the line? I'm not being "lazy" - I don't recollect such a specific route as you've just mentioned.

Already dying with shame in case this is from the EOR website that I haven't read !!!!!!
Arrrggghhhhhh !!!

I fully note your reply above:

« Reply #3 on Today at 12:13am »

I referred to "Coopersale" as I believe you refer to it on your parent website, and understand tracks were curtailed some 500 yards from the existing Epping LU station. I don't think we have any misunderstanding about the facts, except I'm sorry to hear your DMU is suffering from a bit of a cold.

Given our chatting here that I do hope will continue, and I *emphasise* absolutely no offence or disrespect at all intended, but if you are looking at restoration to GER days, the link with the EOR corporate livery adopted on the DMU is not known to me from GER days.

I looked at your own website and appreciated the Rail and Routemaster pix there as being of greatest interest to me. Thank you for putting them up for folks like me to enjoy. Are they traditional film negative, or digital please? I'm still traditional 35mm film negative. My pix of the Epping-Ongar branch are B&W FP4 negative, taken in 1971.

Requoting from your OP above, "EOR as it stands is a heritage railway ..." I can't afford the petrol from West Norfolk to visit you, but would like to do so asap. It would be at least an overnight stay, preferably when the weather gets warmer, and I can bring my own tent :-) I guess if the possibility arises, if I email the EOR mentioning this particular correspondence, we can then email personally. As a newbie here I think I elected to with-hold my personal email.

Also, I'd like to experience Upminster - Barking and the eastern end of the District. My knowledge of that area is restricted to the fact it connected with the Central at Mile End At all relevant times, my home station was Loughton on the Central. And in the days they still used the "Calling On" signals !

cheers,
OngarParkNRide

[ongarparknride]

Hiya ChrisM, re your: « Reply #5 on Today at 1:01am »

You mean you missed the Traditional Real Ale Bar on the Epping platform :-)

Does my comment: "Shame about the refreshments" at Stratford mean anything to you? Circa 1969 onwards....

Very best regards,
OngarParkNRide

[Chris M]

ongarparknride said:

Does my comment: "Shame about the refreshments" at Stratford mean anything to you? Circa 1969 onwards....

Nope, not a thing!
I'm not a Londoner (I live in Somerset), and I've only been visiting for a couple of years. My parents hadn't even met each other in 1969!

[ongarparknride]

Ah, Chris, you probably came already armed with a hip flask of really good Somerset scrumpie then?



VBR,
OngarParkNRide

[Deleted]

Erm well i read that up in the archives at the lt museum. I'll have a look around for you in that case. Or visit my history about the line. www.eohistory.bravehost.com. Sorry for the bad grammer and spelling this is due to the fact i refurbished the site in a hurry and havern't got time to fix all the spelling errors and theres a few mistakes int he history but thats about it.

enjoy

[Ben]

Epping can't take both LUL and EOR granted, BUT....North Weald has two platforms

I was thinking about this the other day. If an halt was actually built at Coopersale (which is actually very close to the line) maybe extra customers would be enticed to use it. LUL could send half the trains onwards from Epping to terminate at North Weald. The line would only be single track. But at NW the other platform could be used by the EOR, except it wouldn't be EOR anymore I'm sure that a line half as long as the total branch, combined with modern staffing policies would be far less of a loss making scheme than before 1994. It might even qualify for community railway status?

[Chris M]

Would a layout such as the (not to scale) diagram below work?


Obviously it would require LU giving up some land to EOR (or allowing EOR access to some of theirs) and prevent EOR having a double-track terminus at Epping but it would allow easy, direct interchange.

[Deleted]

but... sorry to be spoiling this, but it did close for a reason. If nobody wants to use it, the money could be better spent. On the ELL phase 2 which people do want.

It would be wonderful, but it seems unnecessary.

[Deleted]

Such an arrangement unfortunately throws up problems such as how to handle ticketing in the combined station (because of the barriers), and no station would be allowed I believe on the severe gradient past Epping at present. IMO the only way it'll happen is with a separate station with a path from the other side of the road bridge and a very much changed embankment to get rid of the gradient (which will mean the tracks will be severed permanently). Such a sum of money is not available at the moment and I suspect never will be unless grants can be found for the amount of money this will require (it's unlikely any grants can be obtained until the line (hopefully) goes into the hands of a preservation society from EOR Ltd.)

However, if funds are available I envision a built up embankment, a small country station on the bend with a run round loop! (The space is there and owned by the railway, it's just a case of getting the permission and cash to fill the embankment. Quick!, while the CTRL spoil is still at Stratford ;D)

[Chris M]

I suppose the barrier problem could be sorted by having another set of LU gates between the two areas, and separate street access to the EOR. This doesn't solve the gradient problems though - I don't know the area so can't suggest anything off the top of my head.

[ongarparknride]

With a reply mainly aimed at Rob, but on thread, I understand that the branch line was closed because it was costing £100,000 per annum.

Now that is actually a pittance compared with line's potential - all of which has now been carved up.

I am fully armed to reply politely, in good humour and in the spirit of this site to respond - with the benefit of hindsight - to any questioning that the Epping Ongar Branch should indeed be resurrected, with respect to the heritage EOR Railway project.

The bridge over the M11 being built merely to tube stock clearance has since been remedied. To ensure the line's continued running using alternative motive power to full gauge standards.

The general area is presumably still in a "Green Belt" environment, but a central policy and compulsory purchase with adequate commercial reimbursement is so bl***ing obvious to Add Value to the area as part of a serious "co-ordinated" plan for the benefit of the local area and transport for London generally.

But IMHO this MUST be done as a centralised government project so revenue goes into the capital cost, and huge profits are not funnelled into the rich as per the NHS PPI initiatives for building new hospitals etc. And yes, I am a traditional conservative !!!

The recent upgrading of the Central Line, and the possibility of linking with the very Modern Jubilee at Stratford open the gates to discussion how extra traffic at the Eastbound side of the Central can be coped with, and other logistical and operational matters, capabilities and restrictions.

A vast sum of investment has been ploughed into Docklands and new roads around the South Woodford - Leyton - Docklands areas. This is all reflected by road congestion and cost to the environment in individuals commuting.

Were it not for everyone wetting their pants in anticipation of the 2012 Olympics, a reasoned review of the Eastbound Central Line routes should be IMHO a very high priority for the government to take - what was referred to as a "courageous decision" in "Yes, Minister" - in switching traffic from the roads to public transport.

I intend no political or personal interests in my posts - just suggesting that a bit of common sense be applied to the overall transport in London problem. :-)

cheers,
OngarParkNRide

[ongarparknride]

Hi Ben, re your post #11,

Scratching what brain cells I have left, there was a distinct rabbit burrowing problem when I walked the line in 1971 - local staff chatted to me about it. I think it was eastbound from Epping station, but not sure.


Chris M, re your post #12,

Unless some land has beren flogged off in which WTF for and demand a public enquiry (!) the old storage reversal siding at Epping should still be available, as well as reinstating track for the EOR link-up.

Yes it means amending the "new" Central Control at Kellogg's "Ricelip Chrispies", but I suspect if the Debden-Epping Spur was single line worked, it would still be feasible in line occupation and passenger service times.


Rob re: your post #13, Yes, your point taken and agreed BUT the useage around the time of closure is different from the Line's prospects today with the increased traffic and use of the M11.

I'm putting my thoughts into the public domain here for discussion. I don't own a pile of land that might be demoted from "Green Belt" to make a secret profit, and can you name any other viable LU connection on the system that could be over-due for re-development and re-opening?

The last time I visited the line a few years ago, Blake Hall Station was only one step short of being a multi-storey car and lorry park anyway :-)

Biolizard, thanks for your several points at your post #14, and I'd prefer not to reply directly just right now,

On cost and operational grounds, a sub-station to power the Epping-Ongar branch to full operational standards was not provided back in 1957, but times have changed since.

cheers,