Points Failure two weeks ago

[Deleted]

Hi everybody,
Nice forum you got here. Looking forward to asking some questions of you all :-)

Two weeks ago, on a Sunday there was a little problem with the Metropolitan line near Baker Street.
The met train northbound was in the tunnel between Baker Street and Portland Street, had not yet crossed the junction into the Baker St Met.

The train stopped there for quite some time, I was waiting on the Circle/H&C westbound with our trains stuck behind the Met.

We were told signal failure at first, later on points failure but for whatever reason, the Met train was eventually signalled into the Circle/H&C platform westbound.

Obviously the met train was too long for the platform so the driver and station staff undertook some careful manuvering emptying the train in two halves.

After this, the Met train was reversed and returned to Moorgate Not-in-service, this cleared the way for our H&C train and every other train stuck behind.

The whole process which I saw from the approach of the Met train to its leaving after the incident took about 40 minutes.

Here are my questions:

Could the Met train have not continued on to Edgware Road which according to Clives UndergrounD, A-stock are able to do, and reverse there?
The met train stood empty for quite some time at baker street, the driver saying somthing about it taking time for signallers to give him the green to reverse.

Was the met train reversing up to the crossover an authorised "wrong-direction-move" or is this a normal move?

Asside from the customer-facing problems, could the Met train not have picked up customers from Baker Street and advertised as an Aldgate/Moorgate eastbound met train as after the train left the met service was suspended in both directions.

How often do Met trains accidentally/on purpose enter platform 5&6 at baker street?

Thanks guys!

[Deleted]

In 2 and a half years as a station assistant at Baker Street I can recall 2 occasions when a Met train reversed in platform 6. There are opo monitors and I believe a starter signal at the west end of platform 6, but I think an A stock would encroach into the tunnel some way past those, making a departure in passenger service impossible.

I also remember a Circle being reversed West to East in platform 6, in service, and the mayhem caused as people stampeded over from platforms 3+5, but arrived too late. Meanwhile platform 6 became overcrowded with westbound passengers.

Not sure about A stock being cleared to run to Edgware Rd. I can see this option being highly problematic as the extra length would probably foul points at one end or the other, further hampering the controllers attempts to resolve a difficult situation.

[mandgc]

It would have been much less complicated to run the train in question Empty Eastbound rather than get involved in expaining to Passengers just where it was going and then arguing on arrival at Moorgate with those who hadn't bothered to check anyway !

[Ben]

Someone mentioned something about Edgware Road being resignaled to take only 6 car lengths. So it might be gauge-wise possible, but probably not electronically.

[c5]

Reversing the A Stock at Baker St pfm 6 requires all the cars to be detrained via the butterfly door cocks. The first 6 cars are done first. The train then pulls forward to a stopping marker where the rear 2 cars are done. The T/Op can then change ends are depart east. Returning to passenger service would delay things further as the butterflies would need to be operated. C stocks (and indeed any other trains that fit can depart in passenger service, but may need an assisted despatch).

Extending the A Stock train to Edgware Road, would require a conductor (unless the Train Operator is route trained). At Edgware Road, if it is an 8 car it goes up to Praed St Junction, stopping at the Limit Of Shunt. Then coming back again through platform 3, then crossing over onto the Eastbound line. 4 Cars of A Stock can reverse in platform 3, but need to draw right up to the Westbound Station Starter, and thus requires the assistance of Station Staff, due to PTI (Platform Train Interface) issues.



As to the reason for the particularly long delay. The Signalling Computer had "called" the route from the Westbound/Inner Rail line to the Met (platform 2 Baker St) Signal MB34(2), but the signal was remaining at Danger and the "release" was not working! In the end they managed to get it into platform 6 - As you know!

I am sure that our two correspondents from said room may be able to fill in any gaps! ;D ;D

[Chris M]

Would the train not have been able to run in passenger service from Great Portland Street (GPS) to Aldgate as a normal Met service? This would avoid PTI and brain-dead passenger problems at Baker Street but pax at GPS should be expecting Met trains to Aldgate.

[swedishblue]

Met trains only enter platform 6 for 2 reasons:
1. A failure and they can't get them across the junction into platform 2 or
2. The driver has either had a SPAD or accepted the wrong signal on MB34 signal.
Regarding the long wait in the platform, it depends how the signaler has put the train through and beyond platform 6 in the first place. If they have cleared the signal for the train to go 2 cars into the tunnel on the westbound (as the platform isn't long enough), and the driver hasn't pulled up far enough, i think this means they can't clear the Eastbound wrong road starter to take the train back into the city. This used to be the case, but i don't know if the signaling has altered over the years.

[Deleted]

awkward42 said:

Would the train not have been able to run in passenger service from Great Portland Street (GPS) to Aldgate as a normal Met service? This would avoid PTI and brain-dead passenger problems at Baker Street but pax at GPS should be expecting Met trains to Aldgate.

Hazarding a guess that as the Met was effectively suspended anyway, it was easier to leave that train empty and dump it out of the way at Moorgate?

[swedishblue]

It looks like it has been sent empty just to get it out of the way, especially if the junction has been shut down for 40 minutes. Had there been no other trains around, the easiest option from platform 6 is to shunt the train over onto the eastbound line towards Great Portland street, stop at signal MB23 (i think) then it can shunt back into platform 2 or 3 at Baker Street and go North. This is the best option if nothing else is around, but not in a shutdown of this length.

[citysig]

c5 said:

As to the reason for the particularly long delay. The Signalling Computer had "called" the route from the Westbound/Inner Rail line to the Met (platform 2 Baker St) Signal MB34(2), but the signal was remaining at Danger and the "release" was not working! In the end they managed to get it into platform 6 - As you know!

I am sure that our two correspondents from said room may be able to fill in any gaps! ;D ;D

Doesn't appear to be any gaps - unlike the service that evening. Fortunately this all happened while I was on leave ;D

swedishblue said:

Met trains only enter platform 6 for 2 reasons:
1. A failure and they can't get them across the junction into platform 2 or
2. The driver has either had a SPAD or accepted the wrong signal on MB34 signal.
Regarding the long wait in the platform, it depends how the signaler has put the train through and beyond platform 6 in the first place. If they have cleared the signal for the train to go 2 cars into the tunnel on the westbound (as the platform isn't long enough), and the driver hasn't pulled up far enough, i think this means they can't clear the Eastbound wrong road starter to take the train back into the city. This used to be the case, but i don't know if the signaling has altered over the years.

There is a third reason - if we want it to happen. For example, rare as it may be, Platform 2 could be blocked and may make it quicker to reverse the stock in platform 6 and back out of the way to allow the Circle and H&C to resume.

If the driver has a SPAD on MB34 he/she does not go to platform 6. The train is set back behind MB34 (following carefully laid down procedures of course) and then awaits a clear signal.

The signaller does not decide how the train is emptied. However, the train does indeed need to move into the tunnel (towards Edgware Road) so that the rear of the train berths in the platform. This is achieved by the train being authorised to pass MB28 - the station starter - at danger.

Once the rear of the train has berthed, the system has a tendancy to try to clear the wrong road starter straight away (as it believes the train has been "in the platform" long enough for the driver to have changed ends - which would probably be true if it was a C-stock. Therefore we place a hold on the starter and do not allow it to clear until informed by the station or the driver that the train is ready to depart. This can sometimes cause a delay when the information is not passed promptly to us.

[Chris M]

Are Met drivers road trained into platform 6? Is training given to Met drivers in the detrainment procedure for an A stock in platform 6 or is the information just given when needed?

[c5]

awkward42 said:

Are Met drivers road trained into platform 6? Is training given to Met drivers in the detrainment procedure for an A stock in platform 6 or is the information just given when needed?

It is on the DVD (well I think it is, I will have to have a look).
It would be covered as part of their road knowledge.

What I didnt mention i my earlier post is if it is known (or indeed thought) that the route from the Inner Rail to the Met is failing, then it would be detrained at Great Portland Street.

This saves time detraining 8 cars via butterflies (first 6, then rear 2). However the Station Supervisor will still be present to assist in PTI issues, possibly to authorise the Train Operator past any signals, on the instruction of the person acting as the Signal Operator, and to help the Train Op out if need be!

[Oracle]

Did I see somewhere please in the excellent and informative postings that there is a wrong-road signal on the Outer Rail east of Baker Street Junction, to enable trains to run O/R to the normal W/B Baker platform..P6 is it? I know there's the #-over I/R to O/R east of the Junction, so there must logically be a signal. Is it a signalled move to run altrenatively to the normal E/B platform and thence to the N/B / W/B line?

[c5]

oracle said:

Did I see somewhere please in the excellent and informative postings that there is a wrong-road signal on the Outer Rail east of Baker Street Junction, to enable trains to run O/R to the normal W/B Baker platform..P6 is it? I know there's the #-over I/R to O/R east of the Junction, so there must logically be a signal. Is it a signalled move to run altrenatively to the normal E/B platform and thence to the N/B / W/B line?

There is indeed a Main Line shunt signal from the O/R to the I/R and Baker St Pfm 2 (N/B Through) (I dont think you can go from the Main Line shunt into 3, but HarSig or CitySig will be able to slap me down there ;D ;D ;D ;D)
So you would go onto the O/R or I/R platforms, run under clear signals to the stopping marker, change ends and await clear signal, then back onto the I/R for a short bit then back to pfm 2.
If that makes sense ;D
The O/R to I/R move is used in the early morning and some late evenings as a timetabled move.

It is the same route that is used for Met trains to go from platform 2 into the City.

[Oracle]

Ta JTD! My file gives some info on the subject:

www.gmhistorian.btinternet.co.uk/psul.htm

[Deleted]

Thanks for the answers peeps, fantastic level detail as always.

Coincidently, I received a reply from tfl customer services today who have given me the official account of what was going on:
(Sentences omitted to remove names and my travel specifics etc)

---

"Thank you for your feedback form about the incident at Baker Street on 15 July.

Two incidents that evening had led to the disruption to the services. At 21.00hrs three Circle line trains were recalled to depot for regular examination and there were no replacements available, resulting in a reduction in the service.

This was followed at 21.47hrs by a signal failure at Baker Street, leading to the suspension of the Metropolitan line service between Baker Street and Aldgate, and that of the Hammersmith & City and the Circle line between Edgware Road and Moorgate.

As a train was stalled between stations, as a precautionary measure an ambulance was requested to be in attendance at Baker Street where the 100 passengers alighted and were provided with water.

The Hammersmith & City and Circle line resumed to severe delays at 22.36hrs, but the Metropolitan line remain suspended between Baker Street and Aldgate.

Once again I apologise for the delay to your journey and for any inconvenience you were caused.

Please contact me again if you need any help in the future."

---

[citysig]

c5 said:

There is indeed a Main Line shunt signal from the O/R to the I/R and Baker St Pfm 2 (N/B Through) (I dont think you can go from the Main Line shunt into 3, but HarSig or CitySig will be able to slap me down there ;D ;D ;D ;D)

Consider yourself slapped (in the nicest possible sense of course) ;D

Shunt signal MB33 is located on the eastbound just beyond the junction and crossover. Trains reversing there are signalled from the platform at Baker Street, they pass signal A181 and then either stop at the 6-car mark (for C-stock) or the 8-car mark or MB23 signal - which would be held at danger.

There are 3 routes from MB33 - back to platforms 2,3 and 6. We cannot signal trains back into platform 5, as we do not have sufficient controlled signals on the eastbound approach to that platform to provide a safe overlap.

[apj64]

This thread reminds me of an incident that I had during my days on the H&C/Circle lines.
There was a shut down at Great Portland Street outer rail and I was held at the home signals for 20 Mins, The decision was made to wrong road me back to MB33 and across to the inner rail and Platform 6.
However by the time I reached MB33 Platform 6 had become blocked by a further incident and ended up in platform 2 and thus a nice ride out to Wembley Park and Neasden depot.
Back in those days (late 80s early 90s) we Baker St /Edgeware Rd crews were road trained up to Wembley Park and I frequently went up there on nights.

Andy
Thinking back to all the unusual incidents i had during my time with LUL

[citysig]

There have been occasional stock moves between Hammersmith and Neasden depots recently. Normally they run Hammersmith > Moorgate > Wembley Park > Depot. However a few days ago I sent one such move forward to Harrow and then back to depot.

Not sure how they are staffed, but it would suggest that some drivers are still trained up for both A and C stock and/or trained for the Met or H&C.

[c5]

citysig said:

There have been occasional stock moves between Hammersmith and Neasden depots recently. Normally they run Hammersmith > Moorgate > Wembley Park > Depot. However a few days ago I sent one such move forward to Harrow and then back to depot.

Not sure how they are staffed, but it would suggest that some drivers are still trained up for both A and C stock and/or trained for the Met or H&C.

Sometimesl Metronet (esp. for Test Trains and some stock moves) provide Train Operators for moves like this.