Overtaken at Golders Green

[Deleted]

There's nothing more annoying as a Northern line punter heading for Edgware, than sitting on a Golders Green reverser, just outside the tunnel mouth. After two or three minutes at a standstill, you then see the Edgware train come up from behind and overtake you. By the time you pull into the bay at Golders, the Edgware train has long gone, and it is now a seven minute wait for the next Edgware train.

What's even more annoying as a passenger is that had you been informed accordingly, you would have changed at Hampstead and thus been on the overtaking train.

Can anyone provide an explanation for the rational behind this practise? I seem to recall someone saying it is called ghosting, but haven't heard a good explanation for waiting for the train behind to overtake. It isn't as if the bay platform is even occupied -- I've sometimes been on the overtaking train and seen that there's no apparent reason not to
enter the bay platform.

[Tubeboy]

Thats happened to me!

I suppose late running means trains are out of sequence?

[Deleted]

I suppose you're right, but I don't understand why the resequencing can't be done at GG platforms.

[Phil]

Only good thing, Alan, is that at least you know to change at Hampstead next time (it's under cover as well......)

[Deleted]

I often do that (change at Hampstead), although then I have the niggling suspicion that the GG reverser may have actually caught up with an Edgware train waiting for it at GG, or even ended up continuing to Edgware itself...

What to do, what to do?

Anyway, the reason I posted was not to moan. What's more interesting to me is the operational reason behind it.

[Phil]

alantan said:

I often do that (change at Hampstead), although then I have the niggling suspicion that the GG reverser may have actually caught up with an Edgware train waiting for it at GG, or even ended up continuing to Edgware itself...

Maybe you are showing yourself as a hidden gambler .

Rather than the safe 'bet' of changing at Hampstead and guaranteeing a place on the next train, you are hanging on to the end in the hopes of a shot at the 'previous' train. More risky but can be a winner.

[CSLR]

My view is, go as far as you can as quickly as you can. You never know when a service may go belly-up leaving you stranded, while trains ahead of you are still moving.
As for guaranteeing a space on the next train; the strategically placed handrails are there to ensure that you can heave yourself inside just as the doors close. If you get nervous hearing the squeals of the passengers that you are squashing, I understand that there are various pieces of external noise cancelling equipment available in the form of personal stereos and ipods.

[Deleted]

rbruce1314 said:

Maybe you are showing yourself as a hidden gambler .

Rather than the safe 'bet' of changing at Hampstead and guaranteeing a place on the next train, you are hanging on to the end in the hopes of a shot at the 'previous' train. More risky but can be a winner.

Loved the free pschychoanalysis, maybe I am! Although I often decide where to get off depending upon how crowded the train is and how far behind the platform describers say the next Edgware train is. If it's very crowded, I may even get off at Belsize Park.

cslr said:

My view is, go as far as you can as quickly as you can. You never know when a service may go belly-up leaving you stranded, while trains ahead of you are still moving.
As for guaranteeing a space on the next train; the strategically placed handrails are there to ensure that you can heave yourself inside just as the doors close. If you get nervous hearing the squeals of the passengers that you are squashing, I understand that there are various pieces of external noise cancelling equipment available in the form of personal stereos and ipods.

I generally agree with getting as far as possible, but my inherent belief in the trustworthiness of the system, Northern line in particular, often urges me to get out earlier rather than hang on until Golders Green.

;D about the noise cancelling equipment...

[Deleted]

Common occurence at that location.

[Deleted]

Out of interest, when did this happen?

I do know this is a problem on the Northern Line that occurs often, when a Golders Green train gets held in Golders Green loop, waiting for the previous Golders Green train to leave the middle platform – usually its shunting to the depot.

This is more prominent at the end of the morning peak, where there are several Golders Green reversers in quick succession. The reason for that is at the end of the peak, you obviously have a number of trains that need to stable (fewer number of trains required for service during the day) – and they stable at either Golders Green or Morden – hence generally a higher number of trains run up the Edgware branch from Central London, so that various ones are taken out to run to Golders Green depot. The reversing time can be tight on these, I think some have a bare 5 minutes, because there are lots of trains running up the Edgware branch.

As the Northern Line train is unfortunately renowned for disruption, out of turn trains, this means that Golders Green working gets messed up, crew reliefs become disrupted, means that all of sudden you get two consecutive Golders Green trains! So rather than holding the Golders Green train on the NB main line outside Golders Green, waiting for the middle platform to be vacated, and blocking all the NB trains behind it – they are routed into Golders Green loop, and held there while the middle platform is free. This allows NB trains to Edgware behind it to pass through to Golders Green – but means the dreaded overtaking; I’ve known one Golders Green train to be overtaken by three Edgware trains!

Sometimes, the line controllers will ask Hampstead to detrain all these Golders Green trains, and run then empty straight to depot – but that’s dependent on several factors. And indeed the line controller may well be distracted by other issues when managing the line to notice how long trains may be stuck in Golders Green loop.

I believe in the next Northern Line WTT 51, the issue has been attempted to be resolved.

I’ve never known of the train to be held in Golders Green loop just for the sake of it, while the middle platform is actually free though. The signal overlaps in the Golders Green area could be a contributing factor. Trains can’t arrive in platform 2 and the middle platform at the same time and speed, as both tracks converge together at the north of the station – either train is held outside the station, or is allowed into the station middle platform at slow speed, thanks to a draw up signal that’s difficult to see, hanging out on the middle platform.

[Deleted]

Many thanks for the detailed answer! It occurred two or three days ago in the evening peak (when it happens to me it's always the pm peak).

The reason I didn't think the middle road was occupied was that all the GG reversers were being sent back up to London and not to the depot (as they generally are when late-running in the pm). The train before me at Camden Town had been an Edgware train that I had missed (although admittedly it could have been short-turned at GG). As you said, the turn around is very quick, and as I didn't see any trains heading back to London during the 2-3 minute wait in the loop, I assumed that the middle platform was unoccupied.

I wonder if in the situation where the first T-Op needs to be relieved (or go back to London), if the following is ever practised: Stop the train on through-platform 2. When the second train comes in to the reversing platform 3, have the continuing T-Op move to the first train and take it on to Edgware. The first T-Op now takes the second train to the depot or back to London. Is this generally done?

As always, there must be a good reason for disruption, it just isn't always obvious to us sitting sideways on the moquette...

[Deleted]

soultrain said:

.......or is allowed into the station middle platform at slow speed, thanks to a draw up signal that’s difficult to see, hanging out on the middle platform.

G340. Chevronned now with blue border to denote a regular spadded signal...

[Deleted]

alantan said:

I suppose you're right, but I don't understand why the resequencing can't be done at GG platforms.

I suspect its the fact that the reverser gets there just before or as the other reverser is leaving, thus it has to wait outside. The track layout at GG is good in a way that it doesnt block up the NB, but annoying if you are a punter. Moral of the story - dont get on a GG reverser!