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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 10:32:50 GMT
In Sainsbury's yesterday my eye was caught by an issue of the local paper, which had a front-page article about the possibility of the Northern Line being extended to Potters Bar. I didn't have time to read the whole article, but did notice something about the old Northern Heights (Alexandra Palace etc) scheme being involved or a basis for it or something. Does anyone have any idea if there's the slightest chance this is actually going to happen, or is it complete and utter pie in the sky? Edited to add: Never mind, found the article online. Seems the whole article was based off... "A member of a discussion forum has claimed there are plans to extend the London Underground's Northern Line up to the town to ease congestion." Because they're always the most reliable source of information about this stuff. *g* Anyone interested, the article is here.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 16:17:45 GMT
I saw that a few months ago in the ham and high it was very interesting like to see it open
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Rich32
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Post by Rich32 on Dec 13, 2007 16:56:34 GMT
Having read the article it sounds like a page-filler by a bored hack to try and generate some local hoo-ha! Realistically, with the current loadings, there's no chance of any extension of the Northern, unless they go back to the express tubes plans or build a completely new line - all pie-in-the-sky.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 17:10:04 GMT
Having read the article it sounds like a page-filler by a bored hack to try and generate some local hoo-ha! Realistically, with the current loadings, there's no chance of any extension of the Northern, unless they go back to the express tubes plans or build a completely new line - all pie-in-the-sky. It must have been an exceedingly slow week then; the paper had it as front page news! ;) Which was the reason I didn't initially dismiss it out of hand at first glance. Still, it does seem to be just wishful thinking.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 13, 2007 19:08:40 GMT
I take it this is the online forum the paper quotes: www.pottersbarforum.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=249&pid=1127Now I know my spelling isnt top notch, but I point out the constant use of 'too' instead of 'to'. Indeed, it must have been a very slow week for a paper to quote a 'my-mate-in-the-pub-said' story. Myth busted?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2007 20:20:15 GMT
Local papers, don't ya just love them? Top headline from the Hebden Bridge Times when I was a kid "Bored Youth Kicks Tulip" Top that one!!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2007 0:07:59 GMT
Quote from the other forum
"Recently there been a bit of talk about Potters Bar railway station and the changes that have been going on. Well a mate of mine works for Tfl (Transport for London) says that Kings Cross now has overcrowing problems mostly from people going on the Northren Line. The loop would start at Edgware going along the line that was planned for the Northern Heights plan so the stations would be Bushey Heath, Elstree and Brockleyhill it should be noted both the stations and the tunnel were built in the 1930s but have never been used in today's money they cost aound 1/2 Billion £s (after WW2 the Green belt rules stopped the project being finished but with the growing numbers of people living there and growing car use it could now be build) too build the inner part of the Loop would carry on too Borehamwood, South Mimms before going into a tunnel at Potters Bar station all the way too Higth Barnet. The outter part of the Loop would go too Watford (where it would meet the met Line), before going too Radeltt, London colney before joining at Potters Bar (Potters Bar station could be moved as well but I get too that latter)."
Hmmm the tunnels are flooded and under the M1 if I remember correctly! The stations were never built expect Edgware (rebuilding) tho parts of the viaduct were (the remains are still there).
A mix of alot of old plans (the original idea of the Edgeware branch going to Watford even in the 30s was still considered desirable).
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Dec 14, 2007 0:11:11 GMT
"Local man dies of natural causes" is probably the best I can remember.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2007 20:23:24 GMT
I would put a Northern Line extension to Potters Bar in the same category as the Central Line extension to Stansted, and the Victoria Line extension to Bognor.
I think I've just seen a flying pig!
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Post by Alight on Dec 26, 2007 14:16:38 GMT
Sounds good but surely the Piccadilly Line is easier to extend as it can follow the route of the A111 which links Cockfosters directly to Potters Bar. Really it could go Cockfosters>Hadley Wood>Potters bar etc.
But of course we can't go destroying the green belt area and Trent Park so it would have to quite costly go underground.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2007 9:19:43 GMT
Extension of any of the tube lines would be a really bad idea, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, the area served by any extension would not have a high population density, and so probably would not repay the money spent on the extension.
Secondly, the central part of the lines is running pretty well at capacity, so extra passengers would not be welcome.
Thirdly, tube cars are designed for short-haul services and are not suitable for long journeys. (Try going by Central to Epping and back to see what I mean.)
It is worth remembering that it took longer to get from Barnet to Moorgate by electric tube than it did by LNER steam. The citizens of Potters Bar are not going to desert their fast electric main-line trains to travel by an all-stations Underground service, whether via Cockfosters or via Barnet.
To use on of my favourite phrases: let's get real!
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Post by Chris M on Dec 27, 2007 11:34:41 GMT
The only exception to that is if the lines were extended one or two stops to meet an orbital rail service (a railway equivalent of the M25). I know this happening is not something that's likely to happen in the next decade or so though!
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 27, 2007 14:01:54 GMT
Extension of any of the tube lines would be a really bad idea, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the area served by any extension would not have a high population density, and so probably would not repay the money spent on the extension. Secondly, the central part of the lines is running pretty well at capacity, so extra passengers would not be welcome. Thirdly, tube cars are designed for short-haul services and are not suitable for long journeys. (Try going by Central to Epping and back to see what I mean.) It is worth remembering that it took longer to get from Barnet to Moorgate by electric tube than it did by LNER steam. The citizens of Potters Bar are not going to desert their fast electric main-line trains to travel by an all-stations Underground service, whether via Cockfosters or via Barnet. To use on of my favourite phrases: let's get real! There's something that you haven't considered though; Not everyone will be going into the central areas from any extension. The advantage of plugging gaps like that comes from local movements of people. There's a lot of unused capacity at the ends of lines due to the need to have sufficient capacity in the central sections. Yes reversers are used to some extent but I've still never seen a packed train at Stanmore, Edgware or H&W. The advantage of tube lines comes from the turn up and go frequencies that enable local movements. People who live in Queensbury and work in Stanmore or Wembley and Harrow etc. A friend of mine works in Watford but lives in Wembley, so will end up on the Bakerloo at some point doing just what I've been saying. I wish the Northern had reached Bushey a few years earlier as all my family lives down in Hendon and Colindale (and at one time, Finchley). I believe if a bus journey takes over 35 minutes in a bus, there's an argument for a rail route. Buses should really only be used to plug special service gaps, and as feeder services to stations.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2007 20:09:52 GMT
The advantage of plugging gaps like that comes from local movements of people. There's a lot of unused capacity at the ends of lines due to the need to have sufficient capacity in the central sections. Yes reversers are used to some extent but I've still never seen a packed train at Stanmore, Edgware or H&W. But in your own words, you have proven the point - as you have never seen a packed train at Stanmore, Edgware or H&W, surely this demonstrates that local movements are few and far between compared to the deluge of people going to the centre? All the local traffic from say Edgware to Golders Green/Hendon doesn't amount to much compared with the masses going from all points to town. So true, lengthening a line will add a little local traffic, but masses more of people going to the centre of town.
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Phil
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Post by Phil on Dec 29, 2007 22:53:22 GMT
Ignoring the desirability, whether you get to Potters Bar from Cockfosters or (worse) Barnet there is the not small problem of a rise in level of some hundreds of feet to overcome in a distance of only a couple or so miles. Huge engineering challenge for a railway.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Dec 30, 2007 2:15:46 GMT
Well it is an underground railway afterall
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Post by mrjrt on Dec 31, 2007 15:49:54 GMT
But in your own words, you have proven the point - as you have never seen a packed train at Stanmore, Edgware or H&W, surely this demonstrates that local movements are few and far between compared to the deluge of people going to the centre? All the local traffic from say Edgware to Golders Green/Hendon doesn't amount to much compared with the masses going from all points to town. So true, lengthening a line will add a little local traffic, but masses more of people going to the centre of town. The point I was trying to make was that the people travelling into town already do so, and short extensions to link up gaps only move local traffic from road to rail, which can easily be accommodated using existing capacity. If said links also improve NR interchanges, you potentially further reduce traffic on the central sections, especially if the interchange is contraflow ( e.g. Totteridge/Cockfosters to New Barnet NR, with services running fast down to Finsbury/Moorgate etc. ) Take the Bakerloo extensions. They will add near enough 0% additional traffic to the central sections because they interchange with fast mainline services at H&W (and in an ideal world, Willesden J.) If the Northern Line was extended from MHE to MHB for Thameslink interchange (and thus, you may as well carry on to Edgware), you'd also get some relief as passengers would travel down to FC then across to MHB to get much faster services to City Thameslink, London Bridge et al. Perhaps not as good as going straight to Moorgate, but then they could just take the tube to New Barnet, eh?
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Post by metman on Dec 31, 2007 17:12:07 GMT
The Edgware service via Mill Hill was going to have a station at Mill Hill (the Hale). Its a shame it never got built mainly for the reasons you citied! Sadly it will never happen as there is a housing estate beyond Mill Hill East now!
It is interesting to think how the services would have been run if the Northern Heights extensions had been built! My guess would have been: Bushey Heath to Kennington/Morden via Charing X (every 5 minutes) High Barnet to Morden via Bank (every 5 minutes) Edgware to Moorgate via Finsbury Pk (every 10 minutes) Alexandra Palace to Moorgate via Finsbury Pk (every 10 minutes)
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Post by Oracle on Dec 31, 2007 18:09:53 GMT
Brian Hardy set out the service plans in UndergrounD # 9. As a military historian I am interested that the arguably sole reason for electrification to Mill Hill East was because of the barracks.
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mrfs42
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Post by mrfs42 on Dec 31, 2007 21:52:22 GMT
As a military historian I am interested that the arguably sole reason for electrification to Mill Hill East was because of the barracks. I agree. If you juxtapose the international situation prevailing at the time and the need to provide both justified employment in construction and easy transport in the era before mass car ownership then perforce the need to transport to/from the barracks becomes apparent.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2008 7:17:07 GMT
The country was at war, so the problem was not providing employment, but rather a shortage of men and materials for civilian projects.
The Northern was extended to East Finchley on 3 July 1939, which at least gave interchange with the LNER steam trains from Finsbury Park to Edgware and Barnet. (Highgate low level did not open until 19 January 1941.)
By early 1940, work had stopped on Finsbury Park to Alex Palace and East Finchley, and on Finchley Central to Edgware. It continued on the East Finchley to Barnet section, which opened on 14 April 1940. The steam trains then terminated at East Finchley, and there was a "temporary" bus service from Finchley Central to Edgware. (This gave an interesting situation at Edgware, where passengers went to the LT station to buy an LNER train ticket to travel on a bus.)
The Story of London's Underground states that the main purpose of the extension to MHE (which opened on 18 May 1941) was to serve the Inglis Barracks. The bus service then ran from MHE to Edgware.
Incidentally, in the late 1950s it was still possible to buy an underground ticket to travel from (say) Highgate to Edgware via Finchley, and the train ticket was accepted on the 240A bus.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 1, 2008 18:24:12 GMT
Yeah, I read that too! I don't remember when the Edgware BR station closed. Was it during the war? One wonders how LT trains reversed at East Finchley in the early days? East Finchley had already been rebuilt into the 4 plat Art-deco it is today I think.
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Post by dazz285 on Jan 1, 2008 19:35:03 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 17:25:54 GMT
Extension of any of the tube lines would be a really bad idea, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the area served by any extension would not have a high population density, and so probably would not repay the money spent on the extension. Secondly, the central part of the lines is running pretty well at capacity, so extra passengers would not be welcome. What about an extension from Kennington after the Northern Line split? Surely that's possible, a high density area, and after the split and frequency upgrade there should be spare capacity on that line.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 3, 2008 18:52:48 GMT
Personally I don't like the idea of tube railway extension in South London-I think existing lines should be upgraded (like the ELL) by TfL. Whats the service like on the South London Line? That should become like a metro service running every 6 minutes or similar.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2008 19:38:54 GMT
Well the most likely scenarios are bits of tunneling and completely new lines, combined with the taking over of national rail lines. I really don't see how you can be against the extension of the tube into South London.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2008 7:38:58 GMT
Extension of any of the tube lines would be a really bad idea, for a number of reasons. Firstly, the area served by any extension would not have a high population density, and so probably would not repay the money spent on the extension. Secondly, the central part of the lines is running pretty well at capacity, so extra passengers would not be welcome. What about an extension from Kennington after the Northern Line split? Surely that's possible, a high density area, and after the split and frequency upgrade there should be spare capacity on that line. There is not much point in extending the Underground into south London, because of the intensive network of National Rail tracks. Indeed, that is why the Underground does not do much south of the Thames. And, for the distances involved, tube trains would probably not be suitable.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2008 7:49:38 GMT
What about an extension from Kennington after the Northern Line split? Surely that's possible, a high density area, and after the split and frequency upgrade there should be spare capacity on that line. There is not much point in extending the Underground into south London, because of the intensive network of National Rail tracks. Indeed, that is why the Underground does not do much south of the Thames. And, for the distances involved, tube trains would probably not be suitable. I think there is a good reason behind extending the Bakerloo & Northern (Charing X branch) into sarf London. Even with NR lines, much of south London is poorly served by rail, especially anything at metro like frequencies. The high population density could support metro services. I think the Bakerloo should be extended to the poorly served by rail Peckham. The Northern Line (Charing X branch) should be extended to Streatham (maybe via Brixton or running express parallel to the overcrowded Morden branch as far as Balham). However I don't think it would be cost effective to extend much further than the above locations.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2008 13:29:42 GMT
I agree. There are quite a few deprived places in South (especially South East) London that really could really gain from better transport, and a tube that goes straight through the city centre at high frequencies is the ideal solution. There is also a very large region in SE London with no rail access at all. Just to quote someone on the uk.transport.london newsgroup:
It frequently strikes me, when considering the geography of the terra incognita called 'South London', that there is an amazingly large region with no railway stations in the Walworth area. If you draw a line through Elephant & Castle, Kennington, Oval, Stockwell, Brixton, Loughborough Junction, Denmark Hill, Peckham Rye, Queen's Road Peckham, South Bermondsey, Bermondsey, Borough, and back to Elephant, you have an area within which there are no other railway stations of any sort. That's a huge area, about equal to the area encircled by the Inner Ring Road, and densely populated.
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metman
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Post by metman on Jan 4, 2008 16:15:50 GMT
Tube extension was difficult in Sth London because that ground in places in very poor to tunnel in. This was one of the problems the Northern line had en route to Morden. I think more could be made of the Thameslink trains running through central London!
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