Peak hour Watford service

[metman]

One strange thing about the Watford serivce during the rush hour is the pattern of the train service. I like the way all trains run semi-fast, but I don't like the 6-11 mins frequency, the trains tend to bunch up!

And comments?

[astock5000]

Is the 6-11 mins frequency so that the service south of Harrow-on-the-Hill doesn't cause bunching up into Baker Street?

[mrfs42]

May 30, 2008 17:43:56 GMT astock5000 said:

Is the 6-11 mins frequency so that the service south of Harrow-on-the-Hill doesn't cause bunching up into Baker Street?

That's certainly how I understand it - there's a comment in the 'revisions' sections of one of the Met. WTTs this millennium about 'improving service robustness and interoperability'. it could also be tied in with the revision in WTT ??319/320 increasing the layovers at Watford from 8 to 18 minutes.

I'll be climbing up to the Met. WTT shelf sometime this weekend and I'll have a quick look, unless anyone comes up with a more definitive answer.

[ruislip]

What are the corresponding frequencies for Uxbridge and Amersham/Chesham?

[metman]

Amersham/Chesham trains run from Aldgate every 17 minutes. Uxbridge trains run from Aldgate/Baker Street every 5-6 minutes. The Watford trains run alternatively from Baker St/Aldgate. Interestingly the Aldgate-Watford trains also run every 17 mins inbetween the Amershams. However, surely a better service could be run with Watfords running every 8 mins?

[Colin]

There was a post on here some time ago about how the District service pattern uses a 17 minute block that repeats - someone in LU timetables has obviously deemed 17 minute blocks that repeat as an ideal basis for timetabling!

[mrfs42]

(this merits further investigation by those of a more mathematical bent than I): it is all to do with prime numbers. Northern WTT 47 (which in itself is a prime number) which was in force for at least 2 reprints in different sizes (and about 4 years) was based around a 7 minute frequency; 17 is also a prime.

[Deleted]

I love them! When im the signaller at harrow it tidies everything so much up for me! Basically we during off peak hours we cross over the ex locals from northwick park to the fast but during thr peak we just route em through the road, much more tidier and efficient!

[metman]

Oh yeah, on a road point of view I love it too! ex Watford/Amersham trains use road 6 and ex Uxbridge trains use road 5! I just don't like the frequency between the Watfords. somerhimpson, do you find that the Watfords bunch up? I have noticed at Northwood the Watford trains can be minutes apart, followed by a huge gap!

[Harsig]

May 31, 2008 2:06:25 GMT @somerhimpson said:

I love them! When im the signaller at harrow it tidies everything so much up for me! Basically we during off peak hours we cross over the ex locals from northwick park to the fast but during thr peak we just route em through the road, much more tidier and efficient!

You're just being lazy. When I was at Harrow us signalmen were real signalmen and we used to cross things over in all directions during the peaks, with no trouble at all. We had a mix of fast and semi fast Amersham services, semi fast and all stations Watford services and semi fast and all stations Uxbridge services.

As to the use of 17 minutes as a basis of the timetable this arises out of the minimum reasonable time to run eight trains, ie one train every two minutes plus one minute's breathing space.
So for example between Aldgate and Baker St the pattern might be: Circle, Uxbridge, Hammersmith, Watford, Circle, Uxbridge, Hammersmith, Amersham/Chesham. North of Baker St trains which start from that place will slot into the gaps vacated by the Circle and H&C while on the District side District trains slot into the gaps vacated by the Mets.

[metman]

I understand that the Aldgate service more or less dictates the Met timetable, but its a shame that the Baker Street starters cannot be better organised! The problem is; the Watford starters at Baker Street run 6 mins after the trains from Aldgate. If there is a minor delay, these starters end up right behind the delayed Watford (ex City) train. The Baker Street starters should start 11 mins behind the ex Aldgates, then when the delay takes place there will be a more even service!

[ruislip]

During the peaks, do "peak-flow direction" trains have a higher frequency than the "non-peak-flow" trains?

[metman]

Yes, sort of! The Amersham service in the Pm runs southbound every 10-20s but only every 17 mins northbound!!

The Watford service runs every 6-11 northbound but every 10 mins southbound

The Uxbridge service runs every 5-6 mins northbound and every 10 mins southbound, having said that, there is a point when all these trains reach their destination and then there is a manic spell of southbound trains returning to London or leaving service at Harrow!

[amershamsi]

so Chalfont services are worse off - with an average of a train every 15 minutes reverse peak and 17 minutes peak...

the 17 minutes means that Amersham has a Met train in the peak direction every 34 minutes - ditto Chesham. That's a reduction of about 12% in frequency for Chesham (though trains are twice as long, and through to/from London) - worse is Amersham (which has a reduction in Chiltern as well in the peak direction, to relieve crowding) with 44% of off-peak frequency on the Met running in the peak direction.

[Colin]

With regard to the 10/20 service to Amersham.........don't forget the Chilterns slot in the 20 minute gap - so in reality, there's a train every 10 minutes.

[Deleted]

May 31, 2008 7:36:37 GMT Harsig said:

May 31, 2008 2:06:25 GMT @somerhimpson said:

I love them! When im the signaller at harrow it tidies everything so much up for me! Basically we during off peak hours we cross over the ex locals from northwick park to the fast but during thr peak we just route em through the road, much more tidier and efficient!

You're just being lazy. When I was at Harrow us signalmen were real signalmen and we used to cross things over in all directions during the peaks, with no trouble at all. We had a mix of fast and semi fast Amersham services, semi fast and all stations Watford services and semi fast and all stations Uxbridge services.

I'm sorry you feel that you have to question my ability and competance, of course i am able to cross over trains and during the peak too, it is not about laziness i was just commenting on how much convienice we get sorry if you don't think i'm a 'real signalman'

[Harsig]

Jun 5, 2008 0:52:24 GMT @somerhimpson said:

May 31, 2008 7:36:37 GMT Harsig said:

You're just being lazy. When I was at Harrow us signalmen were real signalmen and we used to cross things over in all directions during the peaks, with no trouble at all. We had a mix of fast and semi fast Amersham services, semi fast and all stations Watford services and semi fast and all stations Uxbridge services.

I'm sorry you feel that you have to question my ability and competance, of course i am able to cross over trains and during the peak too, it is not about laziness i was just commenting on how much convienice we get sorry if you don't think i'm a 'real signalman'

It was all meant to be tongue in cheek

[Deleted]

its all good!