Fare for non- zone 1 journeys

[dla365]

I would like to know what a travelcard holder or Oyster pre-pay holder should do with his/her Oyster card when travelling from a station north of Highbury and Islington (for example, Turnpike Lane) to a station served both by London Overground and London Underground (eg. Gunnersbury).

I have a zones 2 and 3 travelcard and travelled regularly between Turnpike Lane and Gunnersbury. When it was under Silverlink control, I was advised to touch in at Turnpike Lane, and out at Highbury and Islington on the readers, travel on the North London Line without needing to touch in again and finally touch out at the barriers at Gunnersbury.

However, now that pre-pay is valid on the North London Line, I'd assume doing this would be considered as an act of fare evasion. But, when I look on the TfL fares finder site, it indicates that the Turnpike Lane to Gunnersbury journey costs £2.50 (a zone 1 fare), however nearby Harringay Green Lanes only costs £1 (the zones 2 and 3 fare).

What is the solution (and I wonder how many people are being overcharged for their journeys....)?

[cetacean]

dla365 said:

However, now that pre-pay is valid on the North London Line, I'd assume doing this would be considered as an act of fare evasion.

Not if you also have a Zone 2-3 Travelcard.

But, when I look on the TfL fares finder site, it indicates that the Turnpike Lane to Gunnersbury journey costs £2.50 (a zone 1 fare), however nearby Harringay Green Lanes only costs £1 (the zones 2 and 3 fare).

That's because the logical route from Turnpike Lane is via Zone 1. Going via the NLL takes you a long way out of your way, though I notice it's almost as fast.

What is the solution (and I wonder how many people are being overcharged for their journeys....)?

Despite appearances Oyster is a point-to-point fares system, and a Turnpike Lane to Gunnersbury ticket is priced as being via Zone 1. That's just something you have to deal with I think.

[Deleted]

IMHO (and experience) too many people are being overcharged by the "system".

Another examples of being overcharged - weekend engineering.

Let's say you travelled last weekend Whitechapel - Amersham.

Normal weekend Fare on PAYG = £3.00

But last weekend engineering work:

Whitechapel - Kings Cross £1.50
Kings Cross - Baker Street (BUS) FREE - but could've touched local bus by mistake
Baker Street - Wembley Park £2.00
Wembley Park - Northwood (BUS) Free
Northwood - Amersham £1.00

Total Fare £4.50 or perhaps £5.40 if touched in on the bus between KX & Baker Street.

[Chris M]

The system also makes errors at times.

On Tuesday I took the Overground from Gunnersbury to Leytonstone High Road tapping in and out correctly, I then walked the 10 minutes to Leytonstone Central Line station, tapped in, took the train to Debden and tapped out. I was charged for two incomplete journeys between Leytonstone and Debden, presumably as I tapped out at Debden more than two hours after tapping in at Gunnersbury (delays on the NLL due to the earlier vandalism, and waiting for the 5th train at Leytonstone - 2 trains to Hainault, 1 Epping train that was too full to get on, another Hainault train and then an Epping train I could (just) get on).

[Deleted]

I've had that same thing happen to me before, Chris M, only it was Hillingdon - Bow Road, walk to Bow Church - Canary Wharf, walk to the other Canary Wharf, Clapham Common. Now that's quite a trip, and because I made both those walks within the 15 minute interchange time, it saw it all as one big journey.
Calling the Oyster Helpline solved it for me, even though the guy had no idea what I was saying but he just took my word for it in the end.

[dla365]

Many thanks for the replies - just to confirm then that if I touch in at Turnpike Lane, and out on the Highbury and Islington readers (being an owner of a zone 2-3 travelcard), it is perfectly valid to use the Overground without having "touched in"?

Does the same rule apply to DLR journeys? Say you are going from Lewisham to Stratford (entirely a zones 2-3 journey), is it perfectly ok to travel without touching in and out?
The reason I ask is because the DLR does have stations like Bank and Tower Gateway in zone 1.

I am not surprised similar incidences have occurred with other members. Once when I made a journey from Wimbledon to New Cross Gate via Clapham Junction (having made a shopping stop in ASDA as well by passing through the barriers!), the system failed to register the Clapham Junction stop and charged me the Underground fare for the journey.

When trying to get it sorted at Canada Water, I was told they no longer resolve Oyster problems worth over £2 and it should be done using the Oyster helpline (an 0845 number with a discreet 020 number somewhere - simply another way of ripping off customers?)

When there are so many incidences, can members like ourselves let TfL know about these discrepancies? Because certain LUL staff I have encountered think the system is perfect and I am just making up a cock and bull story!!

[cetacean]

Yes, just having a Travelcard on there is enough. There's no obligation to be touched in.

The system just doesn't seem to cope well with Travelcards that don't include Zone 1.

[suncloud]

What happens if you have prepay and a valid 'some zones' travelcard (e.g. zones 2-3) on your oyster card? If you've joined the system and not touched in, then have to touch out to get out at your destination (e.g. in zone 3). The system won't know if you started your jouney started in zone 2 and is thus covered by your travelcard, or zone 1 and would in theory need to apply an extension fare.

[cetacean]

It assumes you're using the Travelcard correctly, and the journey is free.

[dla365]

If a revenue protection officer boards the train in a zone 2/3 station and checks Oystercards and found it has not been validated, would the passenger be:

a) Safe as he/she is travelling within the correct zones? .....or

b) Given a £20 Penalty Fare for not touching in on the system with the suspicion that he/she is trying to travel further than the ticket is valid although they have no proof of this?

[Deleted]

dla365 said:

If a revenue protection officer boards the train in a zone 2/3 station and checks Oystercards and found it has not been validated, would the passenger be:

a) Safe as he/she is travelling within the correct zones? .....or

b) Given a £20 Penalty Fare for not touching in on the system with the suspicion that he/she is trying to travel further than the ticket is valid although they have no proof of this?

I believe 'a' to be correct, but I can't say for certain.

[cetacean]

(a), assuming the train is currently between two zone 2 or 3 stations.

There are too many ways into the system where it's impossible to touch-in, so it isn't a reason for suspicion. If you started your journey at reader-less Hornsey, there's absolutely no obligation to touch a reader when you change trains at Highbury & Islington.

[Deleted]

I find the 15-minute rule slightly annoying (although I can accept its reasoning). I take the tube from the West End or the City and sometimes miss the 17:40 London Euston to Bushey. The next one is at 18:09, and this used to be whiled away in the pub just outside. If I do that on PAYG, then I miss the deadline and get charged extra.

[pgb]

centralsimon said:

IMHO (and experience) too many people are being overcharged by the "system".

Another examples of being overcharged - weekend engineering.

Glad somebody mentioned this as I've emailed TfL about a journey from Epping to Holborn the other Sunday, which had

Epping to Leytonstone (touch out)
Bus (Free) to Stratford
Stratford (Touch in) to Liverpool Street NR (Out again)
Liverpool Street Tube (in again) to Holborn (out)

Now thankfully I'd been capped for the day, but I asked what the difference in fair would be because I believed I would be charged more.

I got a phone call a week later from TfL so I could give them a bit more detail and apparently I was the first person to point this little issue out to them! Don't believe that, but its now in the hands of the technical lot apparently so I shall wait to see what happens.

[Deleted]

Cattle excrement.

Received loads of complaints recently/ in the past over this very issue. I've personally raised the issue in the past

Another "issue" with PAYG was (and in all honesty being out of a booking office for 2-3 years makes you rusty) is that PAYG was never valid on the "tickets being accepted on alternate routes" during service disruption.

[dla365]

centralsimon said:

Cattle excrement.

Received loads of complaints recently/ in the past over this very issue. I've personally raised the issue in the past

Therefore if staff have complained about the problem and so have passengers, why is nothing being done about it?

Is the best approach to go to the Evening Standard and do a campaign like they did with Top Ten most dangerous stations ?(which ended up in stations like Clapham High St cleaning up their act)

Another "issue" with PAYG was (and in all honesty being out of a booking office for 2-3 years makes you rusty) is that PAYG was never valid on the "tickets being accepted on alternate routes" during service disruption.

Why isn't this made aware to its 'customers'? There are loads of CSAs outside stations who are usually chatting around (no offence to CSAs on here) as passengers look bemused as to how they pay their fare for rail replacement buses.

I have noticed some marketing mateial stating that Rail Replacement buses are NOT free and that passengers must touch in at the station they intend to use it from and touch out when they alight from the bus. Which of course would add a lot more cost to the person's journey.

Maybe the moral is to either use local buses or your car whenever there is engineering work on the weekends.

[Chris M]

This seems an appropriate thread to ask this on.

Next month I will be meeting a friend at Stratford. She will have come from Waterloo on the Jubilee Line, and I'll have come from Deben on the Central Line. Once we've met at Stratford we'll both be going back to Debden.
Will I have to tap out through the main gates at Stratford and then tap back in, or is there an alternative?

[Deleted]

I'd do that, otherwise, theres the risk of you being charged Debden - uncompleted and uncompleted - Debden. £8 in total, plus wasted time on the helpdesk to get it back!

[dla365]

If you touch in and touch out at Debden within two hours, does it charge you the single zone 6 fare, or an uncompleted fare?

[Chris M]

Last week I tapped in at Gants Hill, waited for about 10 minutes for a train, and then it was announced that the eastbound service (what I was waiting for) was suspended due to a faulty train at Newbury Park. On hearing this I tapped out of the station and went to get a bus instead.
For the privilege of spending this time at Gants Hill I was charged £1.

[Rich32]

dla365 said:

If you touch in and touch out at Debden within two hours, does it charge you the single zone 6 fare, or an uncompleted fare?

It charges you a single zone 6 fare, basically equivalent to a platform ticket.

[Deleted]

awkward42 said:

Last week I tapped in at Gants Hill, waited for about 10 minutes for a train, and then it was announced that the eastbound service (what I was waiting for) was suspended due to a faulty train at Newbury Park. On hearing this I tapped out of the station and went to get a bus instead.
For the privilege of spending this time at Gants Hill I was charged £1.

Suggestions:

a) See if the ticket office will refund it
b) Customer Charter form!

Unfortunately if no platform charge is levied some people simply tap in, and tap out at the same station before travelling. Heck, some people still do it since the £1 is better than the £3 or whatever they may actually have to pay, especially if they know the gates at the other end will be open.

[dla365]

undergroundgal said:

Unfortunately if no platform charge is levied some people simply tap in, and tap out at the same station before travelling. Heck, some people still do it since the £1 is better than the £3 or whatever they may actually have to pay, especially if they know the gates at the other end will be open.

If they do this, they are liable to a £20 penalty fare and/or a criminal record if inspected on train or at the other end.

No thanks, I'd rather pay my fare!

[Deleted]

dla365 said:

If they do this, they are liable to a £20 penalty fare and/or a criminal record if inspected on train or at the other end.

No thanks, I'd rather pay my fare!

And the people doing it are stupid enough to risk it. Otherwise there'd be no such thing as fare dodgers in the first place. :-p

[Deleted]

When I complained regarding customers being overcharged during a replacement bus service I was told that customers on PAYG MUST use alternative LU services, if such a service exist. They can only use a replacement bus service if no other LU service exists OR it they are prepared to have that journey count towards a cap.


Sounds unfair to me.

[Deleted]

Bearing in mind the only Rail Replacement Buses I've been on have been for Wood Green - Cockfosters shut downs and my memory may be dodgy since Staff pass means it doesn't actually matter to me, but I'm fairly sure they've always had the Oyster readers turned off.

[Chris M]

I once got a rail replacement bus from Loughton to Debden (had I known the area, I'd have realised I could have walked it quicker!) and was told I didn't need to tap my oyster anywhere.

[suncloud]

I think that comes under the 'no alternative LU service' caveat... I think the problems with fares tend to arise when the middle section of a journey is covered by rail replacement buses, as the oyster system sees two separate tube journeys.
Anyway, with a journey from London to Debden with rail replacement buses from Loughton, LU aren't losing revenue by you touching out at Loughton rather than Debden...

[Colin]

The Oyster reader on a bus will only work if the ticket machine is 'set up' - the ticket machine will never be 'set up' on a rail replacement bus as there is no requirement to issue tickets; in fact there is no revenue requirement on a rail replacement bus full stop - revenue collection rests solely with the rail company contracting the buses.

In plain English, you will never ever encounter a live Oyster reader on a rail replacement bus

[dla365]

colin said:

The Oyster reader on a bus will only work if the ticket machine is 'set up' - the ticket machine will never be 'set up' on a rail replacement bus as there is no requirement to issue tickets; in fact there is no revenue requirement on a rail replacement bus full stop - revenue collection rests solely with the rail company contracting the buses.

In plain English, you will never ever encounter a live Oyster reader on a rail replacement bus

As far as I know, the East London Line replacement buses are set to deduct the zone 2 LUL fare from the readers of buses. Perhaps this is an exception as it is a long-term measure?

Undergroundgal: There are many cases where fare collection is so lax that the dodgers can afford not to have tickets for travel - one example I can think of are some suburban railway stations eg. Bruce Grove and bendy bus routes eg. route 29