HST's in the south east region?

[Deleted]

A question that's plagued me for agggesss:

Has an HST either Intercity 125 or Intercity 225 ever run in the South East? (In service or out of service... perhaps not including the royal train?)

By south east I'm thinking mainly of South East trains, Southern Trains regions. Would be interested to know also about LTS railway tho.

Any pics if such a move exists?

[cetacean]

125s used to routinely run from Bournemouth to Reading on Cross Country services. I don't think they've ever gone to areas further east. 225s obviously can't visit the Southern region, as they can't run on third rail.

The royal train isn't a 125.

[mcmaddog]

Well, the old Eurostar connection IC125 services from Manchester used to run into Waterloo. I believe only short wheel based Mark III coaches could travel over third rail track although this rule was convieniently forgotten at Watford Junction.

[Deleted]

Back in 2005 FGW HST;s were diverted into Waterloo during a blockade of Paddington.

www.railfaneurope.net/pix/gb/diesel/HST/GW/FGW_blue/London/gb-diesel-43088-Waterloo-03.jpg

If you Google "HST Waterloo" you'll see lots of references, youtube etc......

[cetacean]

Oct 3, 2008 10:07:20 GMT mcmaddog said:

I believe only short wheel based Mark III coaches could travel over third rail track although this rule was convieniently forgotten at Watford Junction.

Short swing link bogies. The swing link is part of the suspension that determines how the body moves relative to the bogie. The wheelbase and carriage length is the same on both types, AFAIK. I'm not sure which part of the carriage they're worried about hitting the third rail.

[Oracle]

Cross-Country used HSTs on the Poole-North services. The concern was apparently that Mk 3 stock would foul the third rail at Northam curve, just round the bend as it were from Northam Junction, and just before Southampton Tunnel. Or perhaps it was actually the Up line now I think about it, around the Curve. The suggestion I heard was that the underbody equipment (casing) might foul the third rail.

[amershamsi]

were HSTs used for the Brighton and Portsmouth XC services?

[upfast]

Oct 3, 2008 13:05:06 GMT @amershamsi said:

were HSTs used for the Brighton and Portsmouth XC services?

To Brighton, no. However there was talk about having one for the last ever Brighton XC service coming up in December.

[Oracle]

I am sure a positive 'no'. I would imagine that they were Class 47-hauled. However, Hastings units were used on the Brighton-west country services via Salisbury and I am not sure if any reversed at Portsmouth & Southsea. I can only recall WR DMUs and SR DEMUs on the Portsmouth-Bristol/Cardiff services.

[Colin]

I am fairly certain a 125 set has been on LTS (back when it was under Network Southeast branding), for a rail tour or some such - certainly if I am right, it would have been a one off event.

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2008 10:44:40 GMT @centralsimon said:

Back in 2005 FGW HST;s were diverted into Waterloo during a blockade of Paddington.

remember that! was travelling back from boring devon at the time, but the problem was the next first great western service to london waterloo from torquay was about an hour so we had to take a 159 stopping service! grrr damn first worst great western

[apj64]

I can,t remember the exact year but a hst railtour ran from Southend to York for the Museum. I was still at school at the time and would place it around 1978/79.
I remember getting up early to see the train through Barking unfortunatley my parents would not allow me to travel on the railtour.
I do believe there has been another on the LTS since privatisation

[singaporesam]

I remember when I was a student there used to be boat trains that ran from Liverpool to Dover Western docks via London Olympia, I used to catch these a lot and change at Bromley South, I can ´t for the life of me remember how they were hauled, I think it started with an HST, but we used to stop for some time in Olympia so they might have swapped for something else. Definitely Mark III coaches all the way though.

[Deleted]

I think those trains were hauled by Class 47 locos on the South Eastern, at least at the time when they ceased running. They may have had a Class 86 as far as Mitre Bridge Jn on the West London line.

I don't *think* that HSTs ever ran on the South Eastern Division in timetabled passenger service. Apart from the Dover and Ramsgate trains I can't think of any other possible candidate service.

[Deleted]

The more I read this thread, the more I'm convinced I've seen a pic of an HST at Brighton! It was some years ago and may have been in '92 when they first started working to the south coast on the Bournemouth and Poole work. I think the pic was in the 'Railway Magazine'. Thats the worst of old age. Firstly,the memory starts to go and secondly, err umm.... What was I talking about?

[Deleted]

Oct 3, 2008 11:26:08 GMT Oracle said:

The concern was apparently that Mk 3 stock would foul the third rail ... [SNIP] ... The suggestion I heard was that the underbody equipment (casing) might foul the third rail.

Why wasn't this an issue with the Class 442s (wessex electrics), then - units which had exactly the same bodyshell and undercarriage?

[cetacean]

As mentioned in previous comments, only Mk 3 carriages with "long swing link" suspension are banned, as the body can move further relative to the bogies. 442s are presumably fitted with short swing link suspension.

[Deleted]

cetacean is correct - although LSL bogies will not hit the juice rail in normal service, it happens if the suspension bag is slightly deflated so the risk is just too high.

[Oracle]

The HSTs used on the Cross-Country services had SSL bogies. On Gensheet (a reputable forum so can be mentioned) reference was made to The Royal Train (in connection with a query as to whether HSTs had ever worked Reading-Redhill). It is assumed that the Mk3 coaches have SSLs, but it seems that specific reference is made to its permitted routings and speed limits. Perhaps swl can confirm please?

[Deleted]

If what I was told a few years ago is correct, then the Mk3s are indeed SSL - but due to increased weight of the stock owing to strengthened windows and other bits and bobs, the route availability is affected.

[Deleted]

The short swing link bogie modification was indeed the precurser to Southern region ops. The swing link took the form of what looked like a loop of steel cable as opposed to the solid metal object that used to be there. The 'Plastic Pigs' (442s) had entirely different bogies.

[Chris M]

Didn't the 442s use bogies from an earlier stock?

[Deleted]

No. The bogies themselves were new. It was just the electrical equipment that was salvaged from the late, lamented, 4-REP units. If ever there was a contender for the finest EMU ever built it was a REP. I timed one at well over 115mph one sunday at Wallers Ash. I was the Guard on the working and we ran from Basingstoke to Winchester in 13 minutes flat! That's an AVERAGE speed of 87.5mph... I also worked as Guard on one that managed Waterloo to Winchester inside 45 minutes. The Driver was not amused when I wouldn't ring the bells until 'right time'. 12 minutes we sat there! By the time I passed for driving EMUs they were long gone. Regrets, I've had a few.....

[Deleted]

444s manage Winchester to Worting Jn in 13 minutes nowadays which isn't too bad...

I also worked as Guard on one that managed Waterloo to Winchester inside 45 minutes. The Driver was not amused when I wouldn't ring the bells until 'right time'. 12 minutes we sat there!

Waterloo - Southampton Airport Parkway booked 52 minutes was quite fun to do...

Edit... according to TRC as I can't be bothered to look up my notes, 442s had BREL T4 bogies, while the power was BR Mk6. HSTs have BT10.

[Oracle]

I like the photos of the Merchant Navies in the last years being thrashed at over 100 mph.

I can only recall ever seeing a 4-REP + 8-TC doing 100 once, when I peeked at the speedo in a TC cab. Makes you wonder what the trial 3 x 4-REP combo could have achieved with 9,900 hp! That would have been 1968ish?

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2008 8:05:46 GMT Oracle said:

Makes you wonder what the trial 3 x 4-REP combo could have achieved with 9,900 hp! That would have been 1968ish?

It cuts out the power at Wimbledon Depot, I can tell you that ... ;D

[Oracle]

I am sure that a 3 x REP combo has been done more than once but can anyone confirm please?

I seem to recall that there were suggestions of 115 or so with one or two MNs?

Apart from the REPs, what about the 'Clactons', supposedly the first 100 mph EMUs?

[Deleted]

Yeah, it's definately happened but it once managed to cut the power at Wimbo.

[Deleted]

If two were used in multiple then they shouldn't have been worked past notch two or 'series. Either that or the rear unit would have to be isolated. This instruction may well have come about after the working mentioned above. The same problem occured on other parts of the network. 'Series only' was the instructiion for an 8-car on the Lymington branch for instance.