Wrong Direction Move

[trc666]

I know on other lines, the trainstops would be pegged in order to perform a Wrong Direction Move, but what needs to be done to do a WDM on the Victoria (saw from Finsbury Park to Highbury), as there could be issues with ATO?

[ribaric]

I don't think they'd be pegged for a one-off WDM.
A different story if were an organised single line working but ATP (generally) makes SLW a waste if time due to the enforcement of slow manual (restricted manual on other lines) driving.

[Colin]

I dunno what they do on the Vic, but I can say that on 'conventional' lines the train stops are not touched during a wrong direction move.

Trip cocks at each end are cut out, then cut back in (and re-set) once the the move is completed. It remains safe because the 'wrong direction movement person in charge' travels on the train and is effectively the trip cock.

[metman]

I remember reading in an Underground news years ago that some trains had to reverse up the tunnels near Brixton-I'll try and dig it out!

[ribaric]

You'll probably find plenty of examples of trains needing to make a WDM, usually because they were between stations when some kind of big incident ahead meant they could not run to the next station. Each train would be moved back under the charge of "person in charge" (just as Colin said) who would ensure the track (over which the movement is to be made) is clear to do so. It would be normal, on conventional lines, to isolate the tripcocks at both ends to (A) Avoid being back-tripped on signals which would be at danger because the WDM train is occupying the section, and (B) to avoid being front tripped on any wrong-road starters/shunt signals which may be on the route to be traversed.

Trainstops are normally only pegged when some kind of organised service is to operated over a section in either the wrong direction (for the reasons stated above) or because of serious long-term (usually multiple) signals remaining at danger. Some significant paperwork is necessary to authorise the pegging of trainstops.

[Deleted]

Oct 27, 2008 15:27:03 GMT @ribaric said:

I don't think they'd be pegged for a one-off WDM.
A different story if were an organised single line working but ATP (generally) makes SLW a waste if time due to the enforcement of slow manual (restricted manual on other lines) driving.

WDM does and can happen on the Vic line, altho when going in the wrong direction I believe the train would receive either NO code or a 180 code which would mean either a 10mph or a 25mph with a 180 code, ATP would not be an issue as this is not on the vic line, but will be with the 09/10 stock.

[ribaric]

Thank you saeybia, my Vic line experience is a bit limited and long ago. An academic point I guess but do I remember that all Vic line codes are fed from the advance end of each signalling section? If so, then I believe it would be impossible to receive any code in the back cab - even when it's a leading cab for a WDM. That would mean that only 'Slow Manual' would be available via the vigilance trip?

[Tom]

Oct 27, 2008 14:24:48 GMT trc666 said:

I know on other lines, the trainstops would be pegged in order to perform a Wrong Direction Move, but what needs to be done to do a WDM on the Victoria (saw from Finsbury Park to Highbury), as there could be issues with ATO?

As previously stated, trainstops aren't pegged off for a WDM, unless there is a good reason.

When trains were locked in and working as two separate single track services on the jubilee line a few years ago, there was no need as all the trainstops lowered as the last (normally first) track in each signal's control cleared shortly before the rear tripcock passed them.

I have been involved in the pegging of trainstops prior to them being commissioned and after they were decommissioned; it isn't a simple task to do!

[Deleted]

it is just pop a block between the piston of the motor and the stop

[happybunny]

Oct 27, 2008 15:55:41 GMT Colin said:

Trip cocks at each end are cut out, then cut back in (and re-set) once the the move is completed. It remains safe because the 'wrong direction movement person in charge' travels on the train and is effectively the trip cock.

I understand that thanks to a recent change in the rules, you do not need to cut out the tripcock of the cab from where you perform the WDM (from where you drive in the 'wrong direction'). This is because the tripcocks are on the other side so therefor no need to cut it out.

[ribaric]

I understand that thanks to a recent change in the rules, you do not need to cut out the tripcock of the cab from where you perform the WDM (from where you drive in the 'wrong direction'). This is because the tripcocks are on the other side so therefor no need to cut it out.

But wrong-road starters, shunt signals and a couple of other odd-bits (IOW - I can't remember) are on the 'wrong' side and will trip the train. No problem if you've got all day.

Your next question should be: Why don't these things back-trips trains in normal service.

[Colin]

Oct 30, 2008 16:32:14 GMT @happybunny said:

I understand that thanks to a recent change in the rules, you do not need to cut out the tripcock of the cab from where you perform the WDM (from where you drive in the 'wrong direction'). This is because the tripcocks are on the other side so therefor no need to cut it out.

Quite true, but as 'ribaric' hints at, depending on the location there may well be trip arms up in the area and that will just compound the delay if you get tripped on them.

Whilst the rule book doesn't state that you should cut out the leading trip when driving in the wrong direction, it equally doesn't state that you shouldn't.

Given that there is a second person in the cab (who's actually in charge of the movement), I would ensure they know how to stop the train should I go too far (as per their duties) - don't forget, cutting the leading trip cock out has been dropped as apparently there will be no relevant train stops to worry about - so I don't see it as a biggy.

Oct 30, 2008 16:36:27 GMT @ribaric said:

Your next question should be: Why don't these things back-trips trains in normal service.

The easy answer to that is they're set up to drop down when trains pass over them going in the correct direction. Of course there is a risk of back tripping when signallers take a release - a good example is Parsons Green on the District, a release taken in that area will affect quite a few signals.

[Deleted]

or maybe its because the Victoria line does NOT have tripcocks so would not be an issue, there would be no code so the train would have to go in slow manual until it comes back to a cross over and then it can continue in coded manual until it reaches the next station where it would be able to go back to auto with a 420 code.

[upfast]

Just going back to the issue of tripcocks (where fitted) being cut out during a WDM. I sure that following the High Street Kensington (train carrying on too far, towards Earl's Court) "incident" that there was a change in procedure and the leading tripcock did not need to be cut out.

Quite often its a pain to get the correct level of protection in for a WDM...

[mrfs42]

Track feeds on the Vic are 'handed' - relay connections are at the entering end of the track circuit and the feed connections are at the far end. The presence of the train needing to perform the Wrong Direction Move will by its very presence drop the code feed to the TC it is sitting on. The circuitry design will only allow the most restrictive code feed into the next track circuit in the wrong direction - and that feed will be lost as soon as the train reverses into the otherwise clear TC.

I'm pretty sure that by the nature of the unidirectional feeds, the train will only at best receive 120 - unless of course the WDM starts off on a track circuit that is designed for reversible road working.

[Tom]

Oct 30, 2008 20:51:22 GMT mrfs42 said:

I'm pretty sure that by the nature of the unidirectional feeds, the train will only at best receive 120 - unless of course the WDM starts off on a track circuit that is designed for reversible road working.

As the code feed is only swapped between ends of the track with the appropriate signal clear, so it's pretty unlikely the train will get anything more than a 120.

[Colin]

Oct 30, 2008 20:36:01 GMT @upfast said:

Just going back to the issue of tripcocks (where fitted) being cut out during a WDM. I sure that following the High Street Kensington (train carrying on too far, towards Earl's Court) "incident" that there was a change in procedure and the leading tripcock did not need to be cut out.

Having skim read back through the RAIB report into the High Street incident, there is no mention of the leading trip cock being cut out as having any bearing on the outcome - indeed it isn't listed in the recommendations either.

Bottom line is that the 'wrong direction movement person incharge' is responsible for ensuring the train doesn't breach the limit of the move.

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2008 22:18:03 GMT Tom said:

Oct 30, 2008 20:51:22 GMT mrfs42 said:

I'm pretty sure that by the nature of the unidirectional feeds, the train will only at best receive 120 - unless of course the WDM starts off on a track circuit that is designed for reversible road working.

As the code feed is only swapped between ends of the track with the appropriate signal clear, so it's pretty unlikely the train will get anything more than a 120.

I didn't think the train could receive a 120 code. I was under the impression that as far as the train is concerned this is the same as having no code. Am I correct?

[Deleted]

Oct 30, 2008 20:36:01 GMT @upfast said:

Just going back to the issue of tripcocks (where fitted) being cut out during a WDM. I sure that following the High Street Kensington (train carrying on too far, towards Earl's Court) "incident" that there was a change in procedure and the leading tripcock did not need to be cut out.

Absolutely correct ! My understanding is that the rule was indeed changed for the very reason you state. However I'd substitute "does not need to be cut out" for "must not be cut out" after all if you cut it out and things go wrong ...we know where blame will be going !

Cutting out the front trip removed a level of protection that would have reduced the potential for disaster when the WDM High Street - Earl's Court went wrong.

Although not part of the rules, the briefing note states :

"The requirement for the train operator to cut out the front tripcock (having changed ends) when carrying out a WDM has been removed.

Why is it changing ?
When cutting out the front tripcock on conventional stocks you are cutting out two safety controls:
firstly the ability to be tripped
secondly, the control governor which means that the train can move because of insufficient train line air.

There is always a risk associated with cutting out safety equipment. because the train is moving in the wrong direction and the rear trip has been cut out, and the train stops are on the opposite side of the train, the train will not be tripped "

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2008 14:33:58 GMT @tfc said:

I didn't think the train could receive a 120 code. I was under the impression that as far as the train is concerned this is the same as having no code. Am I correct?

Yes ! The train will not recognise a 120 code so will apply brakes if in any coded method of operation.

I would expect any WDM to be made in slow manual mode"

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2008 15:40:06 GMT @aspect said:

Oct 31, 2008 14:33:58 GMT @tfc said:

I didn't think the train could receive a 120 code. I was under the impression that as far as the train is concerned this is the same as having no code. Am I correct?

Yes ! The train will not recognise a 120 code so will apply brakes if in any coded method of operation.

I would expect any WDM to be made in slow manual mode"

Exactly the train cannot understand a 120 and will brake. However if the train is near a cross over, the train will receive its 180 code as it does going through any cross over or siding.

[Deleted]

Oct 31, 2008 15:40:06 GMT @aspect said:

I would expect any WDM to be made in slow manual mode"

This is my experience on the Vic. I was doing my first stage of controller training on the Vic when we had to wrong road I think 15 trains all the way from Kings X SB to Seven Sisters P5 in order to get them to depot following an incident at Highbury on the north. It took all night.........

[Tom]

Nov 1, 2008 19:32:27 GMT @saeybia said:

Oct 31, 2008 15:40:06 GMT @aspect said:

Yes ! The train will not recognise a 120 code so will apply brakes if in any coded method of operation.

I would expect any WDM to be made in slow manual mode"

Exactly the train cannot understand a 120 and will brake. However if the train is near a cross over, the train will receive its 180 code as it does going through any cross over or siding.

Only if it is going through the crossover or siding in the right direction or that part of the WDM is a signalled move.