National Rail Live Departures - Met line stations

[Deleted]

Idly browsing through the National Rail site, I discovered by way of a typing error that Croxley station is on the National Rail database, code ZCO. Neither Chesham or Watford Met stations are listed however. Nor is Baker Street - searching for 'Baker' gets you train times for Chappel & Wakes Colne(!) instead.

I would expect stations from Amersham to Harrow-on-the-Hill to be listed (and they are), as National Rail services call at them. I can't figure out how Croxley got included though

Trying to use it gives mixed results: it can work out train time summaries (in a fashion), but the site falls over if you attempt to get detailed train or station info. A random request for Croxley to Harrow came up with this gem:

=====
The 17:18 on Tuesday, 18 November arriving at 18:19.
Changing at Harrow-on-the-Hill (HOH)
Changing at Rickmansworth (RIC)
Total duration 1:01
=====

Another oddity is the station information shown for Harrow-on-the-Hill - a mess of contradictory information and nonsense

[Chris M]

I remember reading somewhere that NR includes all LU stations on it's database, each of them starting with Z. In about 1 minute of trying various combinations I only found one other, ZBK = Barking.

There has definitely been a thread on this forum (I can't remember where though, it was quite a while back) about interesting (ahem) routings across London from NR.

[Deleted]

ZMG = Moorgate
ZBB = Barbican
ZFG = Farringdon, which strangely enough, is titled 'Farringdon Underground' records FCC aswell.
ZEL = Elephant and Castle

[amershamsi]

Why is it so hard to buy a ticket for Amersham at non-Chiltern/LUL stations, given that it has a code, one which isn't a 'Z' code, then?

[upfast]

Nov 18, 2008 19:50:46 GMT @amershamsi said:

Why is it so hard to buy a ticket for Amersham at non-Chiltern/LUL stations, given that it has a code, one which isn't a 'Z' code, then?

Rumours that it is a similar situation to paying to going into Wales on the Severn bridge but not on the way out. This has not been confirmed or denied.

[Deleted]

@chris: the cross-London Maltese Cross marker on a National Rail ticket is very flexible. You can use pretty much any pair of Underground stations appropriate to the route between the National Rail stations. As I understand it, an example of Surbiton to Chingford could be valid by using Underground services between:
Waterloo and Liverpool Street (the obvious Zone 1 terminal-to-terminal route)
Vauxhall and Walthamstow Central (probably the quickest)
Wimbledon and Walthamstow Central (if you like tube trains)
Blackhorse Road and Walthamstow Central (if you prefer the NLL and the Goblin)
Kensington Olympia and Liverpool Street (if you're picking up friends from the Great British Beer Festival)
or pretty much any combination of connections. I'm not sure how long this has been the case, rather than simple London Terminal to London Terminal connections - and note that some National Rail tickets disallow a useful Underground connection (e.g. Chingford to Stansted Airport is annoyingly not valid on the Underground between Walthamstow Central and Tottenham Hale, being 'Route Clapton' and missing the cross-London marker).

There is a full list - each Underground station is known both by a CRS three-letter code, and a four-number NLC code which I think matches the Underground's own numbering system used on UTS tickets.

@amershamsi: it certainly should be possible to but tickets from *some* National Rail stations to Amersham, which has a NLC of 0506 on the ticketing system. Not all stations have a fare available however, roughly speaking only those within around 30-40 miles of London - e.g. Winchester no, Basingstoke yes. Let me know if you're looking for prices for anything specific and I'll check.

@upfast: shhhhh!

[happybunny]

I have found many odd journey options when randomly trying LUL / NR station combinations... For example on thetrainline.com when you try to buy a ticket from Willesden Junction (which on the list of stations, lists three different stations for Willesden Junction, which are low level, high level, low level bay .. explain that!) to Harrow Weald. When you select a LO service there is anytime day single, but for Bakerloo trains shown there is a option to purchase a First Anytime Day Single for £8.70... and it shows the operator as 'London Transport' ! First class on a Bakerloo ?? Similarly the same is available between Gunnersbury and Richmond !

Also the NR website recognises the TOC LUL, and has its own, very vague info page on the company: www.nationalrail.co.uk/tocs_maps/tocs/LT/details.html its TOC code is 'LT'

I have always wondered how the NR live departure board, tracks the Chiltern trains over LUL metals... such as:
STATION TIMETABLE EXPECTED ACTUAL
Amersham Dep20:53 _ On time

If NR has facilities on LUL tracks to 'track' there train progress, then why on earth can this technology be used for LU trains too Or does the NR live departure board get its info from Trackernet ??

When you type in BARKING UNDERGROUND in the live departure board, it does not show any departures. Also strange that the NR departure board for Farringdon is listed as FARRINGDON UNDERGROUND (ZFD) (as mentioned above), but does not show any Underground trains !

[amershamsi]

Nov 18, 2008 20:27:54 GMT @a60k said:

@amershamsi: it certainly should be possible to but tickets from *some* National Rail stations to Amersham, which has a NLC of 0506 on the ticketing system. Not all stations have a fare available however, roughly speaking only those within around 30-40 miles of London - e.g. Winchester no, Basingstoke yes. Let me know if you're looking for prices for anything specific and I'll check

I tried Euston (NR ticket office), wanting to make advantage of my YPTC not all that long ago. The guy was very sympathetic (lateish on a Sunday, no queue) but informed me I had to go downstairs and get a ticket there, as he was unable to sell me any ticket to Amersham (including a travelcard, at that point to 'D').

The guy that I asked at Southampton Central completely failed to understand. After that, I realised that a ticket from Southampton to Great Missenden was 50p cheaper than a Southampton to Waterloo ticket, and then PAYG to Amersham (now YPRC is usable on Oyster, the disparity would be gone).

It's absurd that I can buy, at Southampton Central, a ticket between Dovey Junction and Wick - two fairly lightly used stations many miles away from Southampton, yet can't get a ticket all the way home, due to home being a 'no mans land' of an LU station (served by NR trains) outside of zone 6. Fantastic integrated ticketing that I have to change tickets at Waterloo!

It doesn't matter that much, as unless I want to break my journey in London, I go to Slough and get a lift from there, as it's quicker and cheaper.

Edit: As for why Croxley might be on there - perhaps it's planning for when the Croxley link is on there (and the station may be served by Chiltern trains), or because of the closure of Croxley Green.

[peterc]

amershamsi's last comment reminds me, totally off topic, of being confused by a published fare to Mill Hill The Hale in around 1962.

[Deleted]

Please do tell more! I know there were some tickets available after closure for travel to/from Mill Hill The Hale via MHE and a local bus, perhaps limited to existing season ticket holders?

[cetacean]

Nov 18, 2008 20:27:54 GMT @a60k said:

Blackhorse Road and Walthamstow Central (if you prefer the NLL and the Goblin)
Kensington Olympia and Liverpool Street (if you're picking up friends from the Great British Beer Festival)

The do-what-you-like rule only applies to London Underground and Thameslink services. Which NR services you can use is strictly limited by the Permitted Routes rules. So for example taking the NLL and Goblin around the top of London is only allowed if that's a route in the Routeing Guide. They ain't covered by the Maltese cross.

[Deleted]

Quite - that's why I quoted an example ticket that does have a Permitted Route via the NLL and Goblin (Surbiton to Chingford) rather than a ticket that doesn't!

I wouldn't suggest trying to travel (for example) Surbiton to Croydon via the NLL to Highbury then going back south on the Victoria line, because the Permitted Route couldn't take you north of Olympia. One thing I've noticed however is that there are three routings for Surbiton to Croydon Stations tickets: "NOT LONDON" "+LONDON NOT UND" and "+ANY PERMITTED".

Given that the + (Maltese Cross) is a specific indicator to show validity on Underground services to cross London, what does the second route actually mean? I always change at Clapham Junction anyway (it's the cheapest, Not London route), so have never needed either of the other two.

Sorry for going off topic!

[peterc]

Brian A60K in about 1962 lists of fares to Underground stations were posted at BR stations in the London area. One of these was Mill Hill The Hale. At the age of 11 I had no knowledge of the history of the planned extensions to the Northern Line and spent ages examining the Tube map trying to find it.

From what I have learned in more mature years I believe that tickets were accepted on a bus service.

[Ben]

Wiki has a lot of the NR station codes for LT stations on their respective pages.

[wellgroomed]

Yes, all of the LUL stations do exist within the station database.

I have them all printed out somewhere around from my days in the ticket office.

The following codes were used in the timetable and fare enquiry service, called FACETS (which has now been replaced by RJIS):

ZAM - Amersham
ZCL - Chalfont
ZCW - Chorleywood
ZRI - Rickmansworth
ZMP - Moor Park
ZHH - Harrow on the Hill
ZBS - Baker Street

However, within TOPS/TRUST the following codes are used:

AMR - Amersham
CFO - Chalfont
CLW - Chorleywood
RIC - Rickmansworth
HOH - Harrow on the Hill