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Post by theblackferret on Nov 6, 2019 9:59:48 GMT
When I worked at English Heritage from 1984-89, I finished up in charge of the filing system. There were dozens of files about the effects of proposed motorways on scheduled ancient monuments and archaeological sites. The M2 Folkestone to Cheriton Trunk Road for example. And as for what castlebar said, one called: The M11 London to Immingham Strategic Trunk Route. This later morphed into Stratford to Immingham and back again to London to Immingham. The only bits I can recall from the files were not of Tube interest but were: where it should start from in London, and had things ever gotten underway, the Docklands Light Railway might never have been built whether Immingham was the correct destination.
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Post by theblackferret on Oct 25, 2019 22:14:52 GMT
Thanks for the update-really is quite brilliant and I'd love to know how you avoided the temptation to commemorate Plan 9;must have been difficult not to have Eros & Tanner manning the Scammell.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 27, 2019 21:51:52 GMT
The 1935 units were 3 x 2-car sets (10009-11000 to 10011-11011) from the 1935 experimental Tube Stock Batch which were constructed as prototypes for the 1938 stock. Nine of the twelve such units constructed started as streamlined, but were later converted to non-trailers to match the non-streamlined 1938 stock, . I think there's a typo there, and sorry my own post was slightly misleading. There were a total of twelve 2-car units of 1935 stock, numbered 10000/11000 to 10011/11011. The last three were non-streamlined, and closely resembled the later 1938 stock. Apart from the cab fronts of the streamliners, there were other differences from the 1938 stock in window spacing and the shape of the cab door. Seen here with a Standard stock trailer to make a 3-car unit The streamlined cars were converted to trailers around the same time as the 1949 stock was being built. It was the three non-streamlined units that were used on the Loughton-Epping shuttle, and later on the Aldwych shuttle. In 1955 car number 11010 hit the buffer stops at Aldwych, (perhaps in an attempt to get the long-planned Waterloo extension started?) and its cab had to be rebuilt. The result looked more like a 1938 stock car, presumably because spare parts were in stock for the larger fleet. I don't think 1938 stock could work as 2-car units in LT use because the compressors were fitted in the trailers. Of course, 2-car 1938 stock trains do have real life prototypes now. In 1955 car number 11010 hit the buffer stops at Aldwych, (perhaps in an attempt to get the long-planned Waterloo extension started?)One of the best ideas I've seen in print and probably more likely to've achieved some progress towards that end than anything else mooted. And, of course, given the resulting rebuild you've set down, twihlet now has at least half an excuse to run one 1938 unit as part of a 2-car set.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 27, 2019 17:18:27 GMT
Thanks for that quick response. My reason for asking is that I am in the early stages of building a Gauge 3 model of a 1938 DM, I am too lazy to build a 3 or 4 car set, so was looking at this as a means of getting a prototypical train with the minimum of vehicles. It seems a bit unlikely that unmodified 1938 stock would be used as 2 DMs would be hugely overpowered, and I don't think there were any control trailers. maybe I should look at the 1935 stock more closely. This was the experimental stock which included the streamlined driving cars, was it not? and there were not many of them. Do any survive? The 1935 units were 3 x 2-car sets (10009-11000 to 10011-11011) from the 1935 experimental Tube Stock Batch which were constructed as prototypes for the 1938 stock. Nine of the twelve such units constructed started as streamlined, but were later converted to non-trailers to match the non-streamlined 1938 stock, so you can guess why the remaining three units ended up at Aldwych! These ran until 1957, only to be replaced by 1934 standard stock, just to be awkward.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 19, 2019 14:27:45 GMT
I doubt if it was chosen specially. In 1915 before the horrors of trench warfare became apparent most men were volunteering. There are plenty of photos of daily queues at recruiting offices. It might just be that at Maida Vale there were none who were too old or unfit for military service and all the men joined up. It is though surprising that the remaining men on the system were apparently not redeployed to give a core of knowledge at each station - unless there were not enough to go round. I suspect, given the predilection for women sending white feathers through the post to non-combatant males and the jingoism of the British press in that war, the authorities might have given very short shrift to the idea of redeploying existing men, not to mention the probably infirm men being of little use with the increased traffic. Speculation only, but 1-Maida Vale is and was then the sort of genteel middle-class suburb where the lady of the house might be inclined to practically aid the war effort by serving on the home front at the local station. 2-It was and remains a station on one line only with no other connections, so, by the social standards of 1915, not too taxing for the girls to deal with. After all, it would be another three years before some women would be allowed to do something as intellectually challenging as voting, so it would make sense to keep them away from anything as complicated as manning an interchange station Sorry, but that's how things were in 1915, men in charge, war will be over by Christmas, only the men-in-charge didn't say which Christmas, hence the Armistice in November 1918. Most female efforts in WWI were in armaments manufacture, probably with a bigger chance of developing dangerous & cancerous symptoms than being blown to kingdom come by inappropriate handling of the shells they were putting together. Now you know why they delayed giving them the vote in the first place.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 27, 2019 21:11:33 GMT
When I lived in Uxbridge there was a pub near the station called The Metropolitan. As I recall it was quite good; is it still there? It is indeed still there, nestled on Windsor Street. Often stop there for breakfast when on the early shift in winter. Glad to hear that-used it in 2013 when staying in Uxbridge with Mrs tbf. Was pretty good, decent ambience and decor-booze was OK too. Don't suppose they cook at the bar on a fireman's shovel yet?
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 25, 2019 10:38:37 GMT
I seem to remember a peak timetable (probably 90s) which had a 6 min service from Shoreditch to Surrey Docks (Quays) with alternate trains to each of the New Cross termini. Yes, I remember that and using it, too, to New Cross Gate. From memory, though, I used it in 1974/5 when Man Utd were in the 2nd tier & played Millwall at The Den, so that may have been a Saturday special adapted from the usual peak-hours Mon-Fri service. By 1988, when Millwall finally reached the top flight, I was married to Mrs tbf & so had better things to do on Saturdays. I think the Sunday service prior to about 1980 was more comprehensive than Saturday, because the latter is the Jewish Sabbath, and there was still a significant Yiddish population in that area, especially around Shoreditch.
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Post by theblackferret on Aug 10, 2019 10:40:02 GMT
Was wondering if anymore details exist on the unrealised historical 1922 plan for a proposed Bakerloo Line extension to Orpington via Loughborough Junction and Catford (such as additional stops, etc)? At a rough guess, from this link, there may be something in the TFL archives: Orpington?The 2 annotated c1930 might fit, despite the apparent date discrepancy: LT 000512/001-002 Development Proposals – Possible Extension beyond Elephant & Castle Circa 1930 LT 001087/011 Planned Extension to Camberwell & over Southern Railway Routes - Statistics , Correspondence and Maps Circa 1930 There may well be something more concrete in that archive, so hope you can access it. EDIT You probably know how, but here's a link just in case: TFL archive access
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Post by theblackferret on Jul 19, 2019 14:01:53 GMT
Spot on with the proliferation of allotments-I saw a lot of them that summer on the way to the family's two weeks away, whether by rail from Liverpool Street, or in Dad's works van via the East End & under the trolleybus wires, to Walton-on-the-Naze. The runner-bean wigwams would also remain de riguer for many more years.
1959 was also the year of the Indian Summer and one in which the top ten usually had at least three entries, often more, in it on the London American label.
Bobby Darin that year went top again with Mack The Knife, following one-hit wonder Jerry Keller Here Comes Summer, all on London American, as was the first new #1 that year, Jane Morgan & The Day The Rains Came, which had her version of the French original on the B-side, this being written by Gilbert Becaud-Le Jour Ou La Pluie Viendra. Not only probably the only #1 with a different language version on each side, but probably also the only one with a change of tense, too.
Anyway, you've captured the scene of that summer very well, not just the surroundings, but the railway and its' associated infrastructure-it seems to me to be like a photo-montage on 1959 in England, or at least how my 7-years' old eyes saw it.
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Post by theblackferret on Jul 11, 2019 11:24:57 GMT
They closed Leslie Green's original station building in 1929, and they also installed 11 flights of escalators with Holden's new circulating area/ticket hall at that time. So what happened to the original 1907 lifts, stairs & passageways after 1929-Green's building went in the 1980's? There may be quite a considerable area that's not known.
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Post by theblackferret on Jul 2, 2019 9:08:33 GMT
Well, my surname is Greek, but that's about the only thing I can swing re impersonating Phil & even my paternal forbear actually changed his surname by deed poll in Xanthi in 1870 on reaching his 21st birthday to the Greek version from the Italian original-maybe he was desperate for a drop of DD instead of flipping Chianti or Ouzos! On the station pubs/bars, I don't recall the District pair having a jukebox between them, whereas the third watering-hole I used on those Saturdays, Victoria Coach Station cafeteria(if I'd got the Maidstone & District coach * up, due to lack of cash) most definitely did. And talking of Maidstone, pitdiver might like to know there were two very close to Maidstone West station around that time, both used by station staff. One had the novel idea of a back room annex complete with Dansette record-player & vinyl albums as a jukebox-much appreciated by those of us who didn't want their prog rock/acid folk interrupted by Rolf Harris, Dawn or Englebert Humperdinck. * = a variant of the B-word which conveys passengers along roads.I think it was the general ghastliness of this beer (in keg form), together with that of Watney's Red Barrel,that fomented CamRA. You've nailed that in one-that's how I remember it was in bottles in the District bars. There was one apt word for all keg beer tin those days, which we won't exercise the mods with.
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Post by theblackferret on Jul 1, 2019 19:53:46 GMT
Yes, as a matter of fact, he refers elsewhere in the Victoria description twice to the South Eastern & Chatham side It became the SECR before Betjeman was born. To refer to it as the LCDR side would be as anachronistic as a modern commentator talking about the District Line station at South Harrow A 1-1 draw here;he refers to the South Eastern & Chatham's rebuild, which followed the Brighton's of 1898, so is correct about the set-up under which the later rebuild was effected. But he previously refers to the SE & C's original occupancy from the 1860's & that is inaccurate, as the South-Eastern already had a West End terminus in Charing Cross. Meanwhile, I remember the food on offer in the two District Line dives was pretty limited-crisps, peanuts, cheese rolls & hot meat pies. The beer (in my quaffing days) was usually from bottles & my choice was either Courage Velvet Stout, or Double Diamond (which would have been spiritually most at home at King's Cross St Pancras of any Tube station, considering where it was brewed). And it was relatively non-lukewarm as well. For the uninitiated, Courage VS was like a well-sweetened Guinness, DD was an India pale ale & I don't expect either is still going.
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Post by theblackferret on Jul 1, 2019 17:12:16 GMT
Being a bit pedantic, wasn't the 'bar' at Liverpool St on the 'outer' circle. If my addled memory is correct and i am going back nearly 60yrs when a 12yo schoolboy would have raised eyebrows going into it, it was to the East die of the centre of the station. As an aside the current issue of the London Railway Record has a very good article on the origins of the station and the Arcade above Was it not common for the Circle Line to be known colloquially as the "Inner Circle" by people of Sir Jon's generation despite the Outer Circle service being discontinued in 1908. Yes, as a matter of fact, he refers elsewhere in the Victoria description twice to the South Eastern & Chatham side (it wasn't, it was built in the 1860's for the Chatham(LCDR)) and once to the post-1899 SECR arrangement when they were combined under a distinctive and separate committee. So he was not as fully-versed a railway historian as he was on churches or station architecture.
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 30, 2019 14:54:51 GMT
Being a bit pedantic, wasn't the 'bar' at Liverpool St on the 'outer' circle. If my addled memory is correct and i am going back nearly 60yrs when a 12yo schoolboy would have raised eyebrows going into it, it was to the East die of the centre of the station. As an aside the current issue of the London Railway Record has a very good article on the origins of the station and the Arcade above (Sir) John was 66 himself when that was published and may have had a few more snifters by then than you have had subsequently!! I was sure the 'missing one' that turned out to be Victoria was on the same-direction platform as Sloane Square and that's now proved to be the case. As for Liverpool Street, well, I was using these establishments on some Saturdays during the football season between about 1967/8 through to 1974. If I couldn't afford to follow my club (Man. Utd.), I'd most often go to Chelsea's home games, or Tottenham's if desperate and if the latter, I'd walk to Seven Sisters Tube rather than go via BR(E) Northumberland Avenue/Bruce Grove to Liverpool Street, so either way, I'd not be passing through LS. So, I reckon we need input on your question from West Ham fans in particular-sorry I can't assist further & all Betje does is say re LS 'Nowhere in London is there quite so bad a connection with the Underground', though he reckoned the cafeteria/teashop (not licensed) perched on the higher-level walk there in those days was the best place in London for elevenses, and that's the third time I've seen it mentioned in dispatches by three different authors.
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 30, 2019 10:22:20 GMT
A mere five years later, I've just been able to confirm that there was indeed another one on the way back to Victoria/Charing Cross from Sloane Square.
I'm just reading John Betjeman's 1972 London's Historic Railway Stations & have reached Victoria therein. The Underground station is dismissed peremptorily as of no architectural merit, but he mentions:
It is, however, graced on the westbound platform by a public bar. In the last few months this has been shut, owing, I am told, to 'a shortage of staff. It could of course be that too many people reeled out onto the electric lines, but as there are still bars on the Inner Circle platforms at Liverpool Street and Sloane Square, perhaps this one at Victoria may yey be reprieved.
Makes you want to raise a glass in his memory!!
<<superteacher: Threads merged - old thread unlocked.>>
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Post by theblackferret on May 30, 2019 17:36:53 GMT
Anything left by Leslie Green, Harry Bell Measures & Henry Wharton Ford.
Stations that seem to have no intrinsic purpose to the unknowing heathens--Morningside Crescent,Goodge Street,Stamford Brook & co.
Looking out for the sites of abandoned stations on journeys.
Pigeons.
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Post by theblackferret on May 29, 2019 10:10:04 GMT
Yes, before even I was born!
London's Underground, by Henry F Howson, Ian Allen, of which I got a first edition, without dust-cover today.
This is the entire network as it stood in 1951 in very readable format for the ordinary citizen, with an overview of how it evolved and how it runs-if you want to be a ticket-clerk, here's how.
And there are lots of photos, including some that were historical to 1951, and others that were cutting edge to 1951.
I've seen other editions around, the third from 1962, the sixth from 1982, but can't comment on the mix of the above in those, but this one is truly fascinating, including a couple of pages summarising the Working Party plans from 1949 & with a couple of Whoops! Apocalypse footnotes regarding the Camberwell-bound Bakerloo extension & the Northern Heights plans.
I'd be interested to know if anyone else knows whether this was produced as a sort of advanced tourist guide for the Festival Of Britain in 1951, with the number of people using the Tube to get to the site?
Highly recommended.
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Post by theblackferret on May 24, 2019 15:27:33 GMT
14/14. Dead easy for an old git like me with a penchant for history, except,as @rince1wind and xplaistow have said,for that Inter-City one. I guessed it had to be the least likely to adhere to all the marketing Johnnies(I will assume the marketing Joannas were either thin on the ground in that era or were far too intelligent to try and produce that level of bull) put up there, so one of the three would surely have been promoted majorly around the water, another majorly for its' shops, which left the right answer. Tell you what would be fun, though, to find 14 existing venues with open stations for which to design a 'go there or be square' poster, for venues with rather less exotica or natural attractions than the poster might suggest.
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Post by theblackferret on Apr 30, 2019 11:41:24 GMT
Also conveniently next door to the local police station, I see.
Does this house the Met's EL (English Language) Division & its' notorious P(Pendantry)-Squad, one wonders.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 18, 2019 15:06:23 GMT
I hope these aren't being planted for real on trains, regardless of if they're a spoof.
Especially the second one-knife crime anybody? I find that in extremely poor taste.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 18, 2019 10:15:51 GMT
I'd suggest the rule is there to try and stop people anticipating a repeat of the unscheduled service, especially as DD's aren't providing the said service.
In those circumstances, we surely oughtn't to be seen publicizing such services if that puts pressure on heritage railway organizers to repeat it?
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 13, 2019 15:11:42 GMT
The problem is the inability of 'them' or 'they' to accept responsibility for what happens on 'their' station concourse.
If you or I accept a job/responsibility, we would hopefully accept all that it entails, not just the nice bits.
OK, I know I'm a retired Civil Servant, but if you're dealing with passengers/customers/call them what you like, they are your responsibility.
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 31, 2019 10:24:13 GMT
A quick thought on the alleged busker.
There was, in 1957, a skiffle group called Jimmy Miller And The Barbecues, who released a record called Sizzling Hot, produced by the legendary Joe Meek.
Most of the group worked on the railways & regularly performed at Greenford Station. Unfortunately, I can't find any publicity material on them, but there was a pic on the sleeve notes of the CD Joe Meek The Lost Recordings from 2009, which I once had.
Interesting choice of title, given this thread, as was, given this site, another title they did-Freewheelin' Baby.
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 21, 2019 10:21:07 GMT
I stand corrected. I don't use stock-cubes at home (other brands are available) and in my memory I thought the foil colour matched the box and therefore the specific flavour. However after falling down an internet search hole I am now aware that (amongst other things I have learnt tonight) the foil is silver with the just the logo in the appropriate colour for the flavour. That said. The proposed building is ivory coloured, not silver! Originally, the cube packaging was red (even if it was before a lot of our lifetimes) so you've not made a complete dog's breakfast of it. Not before mine & being taught how to cook by my maternal grandmother in c 1955/6, before I started nursery school. And, interestingly enough, that's almost the blood-red (officially oxblood) colour of Green's original faence exterior tiling. Maybe the OXO logo something like thus: OXOon all four sides would indeed celebrate LG & LT!
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 19, 2019 20:57:52 GMT
Most intriguing.
The colour snap from 1955 has solved a long-standing puzzle for me, which has nowt to do with trains. If I ever literally dream of that era, it's only ever been in black and white.
And looking at the drabness of the people, the cars, the moquette, etc. it's no wonder-my childhood memories must have been tinted by that world around me.
No wonder I loved Met trains,always went for red or purple crayons at infants school and loved pigeons from a very early age!
And little wonder I still do!
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 17, 2019 21:19:23 GMT
How many of those 13k ivory tiles would they need to replace with coloured glazed faence tiles to really replicate Tube history in the design?
I'd suggest 250 on each of the four elevations could pay tribute to both the CCH & ER & the long-gone CSL buildings.
Two elevations for each railway's frieze? Still leaves over 90% of light reflected!!
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 9, 2019 18:59:33 GMT
We should remember how long Colindale had to put up with a 'temporary' ticket office to replace what the Luftwaffe knocked over, but:
To paraphrase as song from 1967:
" Hey-Hey We're the Monkees,
We know you've seen it all before!"
Incidentally, I'd also like to see, even in this sort of blurry wish-wash idealisation advert-style, a passenger concourse heaving with use, not the mere dozen herein.
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 2, 2019 12:11:09 GMT
Hope you can find room for a Scammell Mechanical Horse in there-see Corgi Toys do a reproduction one in BR Maroon livery. Really is very good already!! If you add audio, here's the chart for 1.1.59 ready for the jukebox: TwitConway
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Post by theblackferret on Dec 31, 2018 21:17:28 GMT
I'm not sure the Oyster system could cope with cat rate fares! Indeed, could be an issue clawing back revenue . . . Paws for thought, then. Incidentally, wasn't it eye-opening to see the delay with the cocked signal just because some coke-drinker couldn't be bothered to use a litter bin.
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Post by theblackferret on Dec 31, 2018 11:09:00 GMT
I hope our younger members and readers aren't too shocked to find documentary evidence before their very eyes that it was possible to run an underground network without apps, Oyster or night Tubes and with guards and a station cat-was he part of the Northern Line Information Service, too? Looked the knowledgeable sort. Only pang of regret I felt was the first sign of political correctness at 8:13-8:17- scrambled eggs at breakfast, for heaven's sake!
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