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Post by theblackferret on Jan 16, 2021 11:09:59 GMT
I was recently asked a question about the various Northern Heights lines which I couldn’t find an answer to, so here goes. Obviously the Highgate to High Barnet and Mill Hill East section of GNR would have had its ownership transferred to LPTB (or successors) at some point. However what happened to the remaining sections, Mill Hill East to Edgware, and Finsbury Park to Alexandra Palace? Were these ever transferred to LT ownership, or did they remain owned by BR until closure and the land being ultimately disposed off (mainly sold to local councils)? If so, what were the boundaries? It appears that today LU owns the two pairs of Highgate tunnels, and the trackbed up to the approach to Cranley Gardens. Also it appears LT allocated bridge numbers for all of this network, were they ever officially used or carried? As an aside, were bridge numbers ever allocated to the Edgware to Bushey Heath Line? Any thoughts would be appreciated, I’ve done some reading but so far anything on these topics is rather vague. I'm just looking at London's Local Railways by Alan A Jackson. Under the original plan, announced in 1935, and on which work was initially due to start in November 1936: "The Tube-stock used would be partly owned by the LNER which was to retain the freehold(my emphasis) of its' lines." The rest of the part-chapter makes no mention of an outright transfer of ownership on any of the Northern Heights lines, built,converted or simply mooted as you choose. A later chapter talks about the demise of the Alexandra Palace branch in 1954 & then notes that Muswell Hill goods yard closed in June 1956 & Cranley Gardens yard went west in May 1957. Only a guess here, but I can't see LPTB or LT keeping goods yards going on their property. Hope that assists.
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 14, 2021 10:44:53 GMT
Very good again-pleased to see your prospective passengers dressed up when going out, as was the case then.
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Post by theblackferret on Dec 25, 2020 11:50:56 GMT
For a simple system, Rotterdam has a high degree of distortion, though why Austin didn't just stick with the geographical reality, I've no idea!
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Post by theblackferret on Dec 13, 2020 10:39:56 GMT
At one point, immediately after WW1, there were plans to reuse the Anglo-French exhibition site for a Festival of Empire.
These, however, were shelved around 1920 or 1921, and the original Wembley exhibition centre & stadium built instead. That was because building a new centre etc rather than rearranging an existing one gave considerably more jobs, at a time when post-war trade depression was raging.
Shame they didn't go so far as to project the Central Line up there, though!
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Post by theblackferret on Oct 5, 2020 8:45:10 GMT
brighamShort answer-this evolved from the simple idea of an East-West Tube line to relieve the Piccadilly & Central Lines into additional servicing of Heathrow & then two further lines at the East End. In other words, trying to create more and more passengers using TfL into Central London, as TfL wasn't even in existence when this idea was first mooted. It sort of growed, like Topsy, and any growth project will need feeding with money in the usual all-consuming Molochian way these things do.
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Post by theblackferret on Sept 2, 2020 10:01:20 GMT
I went up to the City yesterday, Bank station is entry via Lombard Street/King William Street only (Exit 5 I believe) and exit via Mansion House Street/Princes Street (exit 1?), all the rest including the new "ticket hall" on Walbrook are closed. The gateline and lifts to the Northern Line are also closed so the only way into the station is via the escalator down to the Central Line (or via Monument obviously). There were six members of staff stood around the gateline with not much to do so it would appear that the closures of parts of the station hasn't reduced the minimum staffing level. Up on ground level the City is like a Sunday, hardly anyone around. By contrast up on the Euston Road the traffic was nose to tail. That's telling. If any part of London can wear home working on a long-term basis, you'd start with the City, because of the existing global level of net-working in the first place. On a personal note, my brother-in-law, who was commuting to Canary Wharf from Worthing four days a week to financial technologists etc. (though it could be MI6 for all I understand it ), still hasn't gone back and I suspect might limit himself, as a lot of others might, to a monthly, or at most, fortnightly, conference meeting. And as that can all be done on more than one app......................!
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Post by theblackferret on Jul 6, 2020 9:11:48 GMT
I watched it, or a repeat on Yesterday anyway.
Not bad, decent mixture of things and at least one bit of railway info I knew nothing about.
Mrs tbf, not as well-informed about domestic railways as me, thought it was fascinating and quite well presented & that is the target audience, I suspect.
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 25, 2020 8:45:15 GMT
Quite simply, most of these projects in TfL-Land are dependent on bringing people to London faster. And how many of those future passengers will instead be continuing with working from home, or will be in a new regional office instead? That's of course assuming they've all still got jobs-hopefully 100% will, but?
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 14, 2020 17:42:09 GMT
Great to see you progressing again.
Early part of 1960 was pretty busy-couple of other highlights:
Railways-Didcot Newbury & Southampton closed to passengers on 7 March
Non-railways: Burnley clinched the Football League Title on 2 May, winning their game in hand 1-2 at Man. City. That was the only occasion in football history a team's topped the table for the only time in a season after their last game-no chance of that ever being emulated now.
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 2, 2020 19:26:51 GMT
At least part of it was aimed squarely at suburban development in both rural but mainly metropolitan Essex, for the simple reason that the better class of shipping clerks, dockyard managers etc were wishing to move out of the East End areas or further from such places as Stratford, Forest Gate etc.
The reason for this was of course London Docks being at its' height then. On a political level, none of the three parties then forming the vast majority of Parliament were anything else but avid supporters of British imperialism, whose many exports to the mother country were arriving in immense quantities in London Docks, so improving the lot of at least part of the workforce therein was in everybody's interest in 1929.
Still at that level, the Liberals were then split between Lloyd-George & Asquith factions as a result of their reduction to 30-odd seats in the previous General Election. I suspect the old walrus-moustachioed one was trying to appeal to all, by reviving some pre-WWI ideas, and embracing the new economics of Keynes at the same time.
The question for me, on the transport level, too, is whether in so doing he would end up trying to appeal to one & all and actually appealing to nobody at all, or whether he was a genuine transport visionary, or any shade in between.
Fascinating-especially considering how radically LT would soon be transforming London's transport.
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Post by theblackferret on Jun 2, 2020 8:58:40 GMT
A considerable amount of this took place, once Adolf Hitler had rearranged Dockland etc.
The 1930's New Works allowed LT (not yet formed) to borrow capital at an advantageous rate from the Government, which expedited some parts of it.
A couple of things where time had already moved on:
The ex-London & Blackwall Railway had closed, along with the Millwall Extension Railway, in 1926.
The high-capital cost of renewing tramway infrastructure was about to impact on London's transport executives, resulting in the 1930's scheme, only partially implemented thanks to Hitler, of replacing all of the trams with trolleybuses.
And one impact neither DL-G nor his co-author of this, John Maynard Keynes, could have completely foreseen-that (1929) year's Wall Street Crash, and its' extreme effect on the unemployment situation from 1931 onwards.
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Post by theblackferret on May 13, 2020 9:50:32 GMT
Couple more-London's Historic Railway Stations Betjeman & Gay & Alan A Jackson again-London's Termini. Both are concerned with the mainline termini, but there is plenty of Tube interest within the stories.
And Capital Transport's The Underground Stations of Leslie Green, which will make you curse what's been lost, too.
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Post by theblackferret on May 10, 2020 9:38:14 GMT
Mainly historical, but Charles Klapper's London's Lost Railways. Not all about the Tube by any means, but gives some detail about the Middle & Inner Circles for a start.
Also, either edition of Alan A Jackson's London's Local Railways & his seminal Semi-Detached London. These are all somewhat societalogically-based, but form a fine backdrop to understanding the driving forces in the 1920's & 1930's of Tube expansion, executed or not.
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Post by theblackferret on May 9, 2020 12:25:09 GMT
Keep it on topic please. Whilst public services are always a political hot topic, this thread (and this forum) isn't about politics. Indeed Tom, and following on from my post on this thread dated April 17th where everybody was warned to expect post deletions if political comment continued, that's exactly what I've done. Rule 3a. Please read it again. Many thanks.There's a place for political discussions on this topic & many other aspects of TfL/Transport generally. In fact, there's two-Twitter & Facebook. Both very useful in their own ways, friends, and both give our mods less work than they should be encumbered with in these trying times.
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Post by theblackferret on May 4, 2020 14:33:49 GMT
John Tuthill I happen to be a great Jackson Pollock fan. But I wouldn't have commissioned him to produce an Underground Map, that's for sure.
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Post by theblackferret on May 3, 2020 14:32:30 GMT
Did the shade of the Met line become lighter during the 90s? Well, looking at this: londonistit would seem Garbutt did it in 1962 & it seems to have got a little darker since then, though still not back to the classic maroon.
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Post by theblackferret on May 3, 2020 14:20:26 GMT
OK, 1933 map (LPTB in the roundel above the UndergrounD logo, which also announces in a box about Dover Street on the Piccadilly becoming Green Park & British Museum closing as Holborn will be opening Central Line platforms & assume line is a blocked/filled line of colour unless I say otherwise:
(Source- Abandoned Stations on London's Underground A Photographic Record-JE Connor Connor & Butler publications isbn 9-780000000972)
District-- mint green & not today's dark green.
Central---Orange & no way a shade of red, because:
Bakerloo---Today's Central line shade of red!!
Circle Line-doesn't exist of course as an advertised service on maps.
Hammersmith & City--not delineated any differently from The Met's maroon or mentioned in the reference as a separate entity.
East London Line, open orange line & named as East London Line on the reference.
Great Northern & City Line, open line, referred to in reference as Great Northern & City Line-colour is a bit like this
Northern Line is referred to as Edgware Highate & Morden Line & is black.
Piccadilly Line just as today, same shade of blue.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 26, 2020 22:15:27 GMT
This wouldn't be anything that hasn't already been happening - the last decade has seen a massive growth in local and contra-peak commuting in certain areas. For many the reality would be choosing between a commute to London by train, or spend an hour sitting in traffic on something like the A1(M) and/or on gridlocked roads surrounding commercial parks. Somewhere like Welwyn Garden City is now pretty gridlocked (not congested but gridlocked) at certain times of day due to business parks, which 20 years ago would have been unheard of. Likewise try catching a contra-peak train to somewhere like Cambridge, Guildford or Crawley - chances are it'll be almost as crowded as those heading in to London, albeit the peak being more confined to the traditional rush *hour* rather than for several hours like the London peak. I'm not suggesting they go that far away from home. In answer to what you reported, I suggested those unable to work from home due to distraction could make use of local or near local office blocks. That way they'd still be 'going to work' as the people you spoke to said they preferred, but without entering the city and in a lot of cases with no need to use a car either. Those capable of concentrating at home would not have to go anywhere at all. theblackferret , I don't think the fact that a similar idea tried 60 years ago unsuccessfully in a radically different work environment lacking computers, internet or easily accessible databases bears much comparison to be honest, and like you say I suspect there will be a growing re-evaluation of how we conduct our lives and our transport to and from work after this. It could mean that money earmarked for even greater and more complex transport projects in London, once this current crisis has been paid for, becomes available to improve other parts of the country instead. This is the impact I believe it will have but as with anything, we can but speculate and history will be the judge. Yes, you are not alone in suspecting, once this is over, re-evaluation may be the order of the day! In the meantime, and concentrating on what is, I'll say again I hope 'our lot' will remain as unburdened by people who think they must travel as is possible, because, haven taken part in clapping for our NHS people tonight, I don't intend to forget the people who are trying to keep our NHS heroes moving, because at a time like this, it bears repeating!
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 26, 2020 18:33:50 GMT
The problem with suggesting effective relocation from the Central area is twofold:
1) It goes against the current London/Central government thinking regarding London's population growth-that of course might just be under review after all this, to be fair.
2) It was already tried in the 15-20 years after WWII, vide Crawley,Harlow & other new towns as well, so you're at least one & a half generations removed from the workers who started their careers along those lines.
Not that it wouldn't be a rattling good idea, especially if a complete reboot of C21 life is effected by people's attitudes after this. I won't take it any further down the line, otherwise I'll stray off-course, but I wonder, once we emerge from restrictions, from a LUL perspective what level of off-peak service will be needed ie will the tourist levels recover for a start?
Most importantly, for you lot running the services, I sincerely wish you one train after another with only passengers aboard that have thought before travelling.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 23, 2020 22:24:48 GMT
And Beijing has now put on more metro trains so essential workers can both get to work and still maintain the 2-metre distancing.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 9, 2020 22:22:38 GMT
I'll be using the old trusted method next Sunday-walk to/from Seven Sisters Underground.
And it's the Tube!
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 7, 2020 15:32:51 GMT
Far better to forget all this and revert to extending to Camberwell Green as origionally planned . C G is an obvious traffic center with not very good N R access within short walking distance. Then possibly extend to Dulwich area. I'm sure that Hayes residents would be delighted to swap their present trains for yet another overlong tube journey as with Epping etc: There is quite a bit of transport access in the Lewisham /Old Kent road area already with docklands and overground etc: Camberwell has a very large hospital (Kings college plus Maudslay etc:) with limited and horrific car parking which I know from personal expierience. Denmark Hill station is quite a walk from these venues and has limited useful services for the area. And as for Loughbobo' Junc the station is a joke with only one direction sevices and derelict platforms galore. There was a perfectly good station just off New rd: but it was closed years ago although even this is a medium walk from C G .At least this would have direct access to central London. I am pleased to hear from people with local knowledge of the areas involved. I only know the area from looking at a map and from sometimes using the Hayes service between Lewisham and Elmers End - where I change for Tramlink. To my eyes extending the Bakerloo beyond Elephant & Castle is a good idea, as this is too much near central London to attract sufficient traffic to balance with the north London section. However going all the way to Hayes (Kent) would repeat some of the perceived problems found on the tube train extensions over mainline railway branches done in the 1930s / 1940s. That said, I would be less concerned if the 1910's decisions were possible - this being using the tube trains to supplement existing services with track sharing (as per service to Watford Junction). However I know that new instances of such track sharing will not be allowed. Many years ago London Transport talked about a compromise size tube train which uses 14' 6" tunnels and has the same floor height as mainline trains. I suppose that enlarging the tunnels to allow such larger trains would not be seen as feasible / financially viable, even though it would enhance central London capacity and create a win-win accessibility situation north of Queens Park. Lewisham concerns me for the same reason that sending a tube line to Clapham Junction concerns some people: Possibility of the trains being swamped - especially if the fares are cheaper on the tube train than the mainline trains. But it is one of London's four major middle suburban regional hubs* and the Old Kent Road route does need serving better than is possible with buses - especially as 20 mph road traffic speed limits makes bus travel less attractive. I accept that the Walworth Road route to Camberwell also needs better transport services - which means a railway service - but unless sending the Bakerloo to both Lewisham & Camberwell became seen as being financially viable a choice would have to be made. For the Walworth Road reopening Borough Road, Walkwath Road and Camberwell stations could possibly represent a more affordable option. Which trains call at them however is something that I cannot answer. *London's four major middle suburban regional hubs - south west: Clapham Junction, north west: Willesden Junction, north east: Stratford, south east: Lewisham What reminds me of earlier Tube extensions is that Old Kent Road has little immediate traffic potential to justify it going that way. It really would make sense to go to Camberwell Green, with all the traffic now you could ask for, and thence to Peckham Rye, then worry about speculative extensions into metropolitan Kent when and if they justify it. Frankly, you wonder why Old Kent Road station (closed permanently a mere nine months after Camberwell New Road) has had just one concerted campaign for reopening since WWII, compared to Camberwell's three. That should tell you all you need to know about who is likelier to get on the Tube, but if you want further proof, there are better bus services through Camberwell than along OKR, because most of the latter area's commuters drive to work & have done for donkey's years.
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 7, 2020 10:08:44 GMT
AIRI, Henry's favourite pests to devour were pigeon squabs. Where he got them, I don't know, because the spandrels and girders of the GER roof where the pigions nested would have been inaccessible even to a feline. Nothing and nowhere is inaccessible to a feline. Especially one with 'the knowledge'. No doubt Henry acquired that from being in a long line of GER cats? Just as a GWR cat would find mice & rats in every nook and cranny in stations from pagoda-sheltered haltes to Paddington, or an LCDR one would know every crook and nanny instead, and every dodgy deal under the sun in Ashford or Herne Hill. The most interesting underground cats would be those at major interchange sites such as King's Cross or Charing Cross. You'd probably need a separate cat who knew the ambience and raison d'etre for every line calling there, and who could treat passengers accordingly. In conclusion, pleased to hear rincew1nd has been adopted by a cute-looking moggie;wonder if your new personal shopper and overlord has any Liverpool Overhead Railway ancestry?
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Post by theblackferret on Mar 2, 2020 9:30:31 GMT
BarsPage 1, my post of 22.5.14-Sloane Square pub/bar had one in 1938.
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 13, 2020 20:16:10 GMT
Can anybody remember when construction started?
I'm not being sarcastic, just like to know, because there may be an elephant in this room nobody's mentioned.
Because if, as I read elsewhere on line all tunneling ended in 2015, what took place in 2016 that has rather dominated the financial agenda ever since?
And which will continue to do so for at least the next 12 months.
In other words, has that one event caused more ripples than anyone appreciates?
I'm not wanting to start any sort of political discussion about it, but if there has been significant economic uncertainty nationwide, is it not possible a project of the size Crossrail became is bound to reflect that uncertainty in terms of its' completion and launch?
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 5, 2020 15:13:14 GMT
Art has to make its' own rules & if the thing is wrought, riven or otherwise created in the essence of Beck, it has to allow for the historical ambience of the era.
At which point, London Overground did not exist as an entity, and the days of Willesden Jcn as the ne plus ultra of destinations and interchanges akin to the lost treasures of Mayan civilisation were not even a distant gleam in anybody's eye at 55 Broadway.
That's channeled my inner Brian Sewell for today.
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Post by theblackferret on Jan 1, 2020 10:55:00 GMT
Brilliant as ever & I remember Dr Barbara Moore from that time-petite old woman who did a lot of walking to publicize CND if I remember.
Shame nobody took enough notice of her.
Still, glad the tea-break made it, absolutely essential to the working-class psyche then and now.
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Post by theblackferret on Dec 29, 2019 20:43:37 GMT
Thanks for putting this up-there's an evening paper billboard 'Kray's Trail Latest' which does indeed date part of it to 1968 (it started in May of that year). And later on, there's a Pimlico station roundel clearly visible as a train goes by (opened 1972), so it's a compilation set. I was fascinated by the way some participants kept appearing twice early on in this & with the non-existent soundtrack and the film sprocket-holes in the intervals between takes, it looks like the art school played a big part in this production. So nostalgia and entertainment on film and tube stock front in one-thanks again
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 28, 2019 21:57:14 GMT
I'm mighty glad two years ago (August 2017) I Pm'ed Paul at a time he was thinking of leaving DD and hoping he'd think about it; doubtless I was one of many that did.
My thoughts are with his family and friends and of course with him. It was rare to have someone who could report as accurately, factually and fully as he did on so many matters here.
Even rarer that he could still elucidate the other point of view and stand his viewpoint and opinion up alongside that without (at least not very often!) attacking that other thought-process.
I have encountered very few who had that facility and I'm sad another such example in Paul has left us.
Perhaps in a little while, a way to permanently mark what Paul gave so freely here will come to mind?
For the moment, all I can say, it was a pleasure and an education to have posted alongside him & if Paul had been a Tube train, he would never have been a turn-back, station-skipper or anything else but the full seven or six coaches, depending on which line he was on today.
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Post by theblackferret on Nov 22, 2019 10:12:19 GMT
I remember the 1962 event, as our school choir in East Greenwich was awaiting a decision on if we could travel to Central London for a Christmas carol festival. From memory, it lasted over a week, but cleared two days before the big event.
Disappointingly, our transport to it involved one of those red 2-0-2 things and not rail.
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