South London Line

[Deleted]

I read somewhere that there would be an announcement in Q1 of this year about the South London Line which would run from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction.

Anyone know anything more about that?

[slugabed]

Feb 4, 2009 22:59:00 GMT @cityboy said:

I read somewhere that there would be an announcement in Q1 of this year about the South London Line which would run from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction.

Anyone know anything more about that?

What's "Q1 of this year"?
This is the second stage of the East London Line Extension,and I would imagine that an announcement is good news??

[Deleted]

Q1= Quarter 1

Yes, I also know it was part of the ELL project, but while the route has been l;egally secured, it hasn't received funding as of yet.

I believe there was supposed to be a central government yay or nay in relation to funding in Quarter 1 of this year.

[metman]

I've been harping on for ages that the Sth London Line should become part of London Overground with full Oyster and a more structured timetable, with as less complex route!

[cetacean]

Basically the government and TfL both want it to happen but Boris is trying to squeeze at least some money out of the DfT and has thus only committed about 80% of the funding. We're in the midst of some tedious back and forth about how much each party pays towards the rest, which will hopefully be resolved very shortly.

On the plus side, they've already built the earthworks for the grade separated junction at Surrey Quays on the assumption it will go ahead. The Transport and Works Act is already in place, LUL own the freehold on the entire route of the new connection and there are no buildings in the way.

[mrfs42]

Feb 4, 2009 23:31:23 GMT @cityboy said:

Q1= Quarter 1

Pardon?

Do you mean an announcement before Lady Day or the Feast of St John; does 'old' Lady Day play a part - Tax or Calendric (Julian or Gregorian)?

;D

[max]

Years ago, there was a proposal to make the South London Line run from Lewisham to Clapham Junction. With a new interchange station at Brockley it would probably be more useful than what we are currently heading for, and prevent the inherent unreliability of a four-branched metro.

[norbitonflyer]

I read here
www.gopetition.com/petitions/keep-the-south-london-line-link-at-denmark-hill.html
that it's also tied in to Thameslink 2000 (and counting.......), because the remodelling of London Bridge will mean less space is available.

Victoria to Lewisham already exists of course, although they run using the Chatham Lines and consequently are non-stop to Denmark Hill. Could they be diverted via the Atlantic Lines, sharing with Overground services, to maintain the link to Victoria from Wandsworth Road and Clapham HS?

[Deleted]

I can't see why these trains cannot serve Clapham High Street and Wandsworth Road and even better would be high level platforms at Brixton, something that has been talked about for years but will probably never happen. At the moment there is no service between Victoria and Lewisham in the evening.

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2009 0:36:38 GMT mrfs42 said:

Feb 4, 2009 23:31:23 GMT @cityboy said:

Q1= Quarter 1

Pardon?

Do you mean an announcement before Lady Day or the Feast of St John; does 'old' Lady Day play a part - Tax or Calendric (Julian or Gregorian)?

Which Feast of St John do you refer to? - A quick Google led me to three!

But I think while the expectation set was of an announcement before the Kalends of April, the cynic in me says it'll be by the Feast of St John (they're all later - and I'd only put money on on the last)

[cetacean]

Feb 5, 2009 9:40:40 GMT norbitonflyer said:

to maintain the link to Victoria from Wandsworth Road and Clapham HS?

I think you need to read the petition again. The problem is there'll be no services from the west end of the line (Wandsworth Road, Clapham HS, Denmark Hill) to London Bridge, and none from the east end (Queen's Road Peckham and South Bermondsey) to Victoria.

They plan to introduce a new service from Victoria that will call at Wandsworth Road and Clapham HS and then disappear somewhere further south, so these stations will still have service to Victoria.

[norbitonflyer]

The petition is about the Denmark Hill to London Bridge route, and objects to the propsal that these trains would now go to Lewisham instead of London Bridge. I was trying to point out that this Lewisham service would not be a new link as some trains do Victoria - Denmark Hill - Lewisham already - although as you point out there is no service after 19:46.

I was pointing out that, in addition, the diversion of the other end of the SLL, to Clapham Junction instead of Victoria, would sever the link between Clapham HS/Wandsworth Rd and Battersea Pk/Victoria. Diversion of the existing Victoria-Lewisham services over the Atlantic lines would restore this link

Sorry if that wasn't clear before

[Ben]

Many years ago I came across a simple map of an idea for the south london metro services. It basically managed to alter the routes in the central division into three straightforward shuttles. There were interchange stations at Brockley, Brixton and Lboro Jnct., and it might have involved building platforms on the Chatham lines. But it seemed to simplify the situation enormously. Does anyone remember it? The colours used were blue, red and lime green. Looked like it was done on paint? Maybe by someone called Jo(h)n something. Was a serious proposal by a commentator.

[Deleted]

If you think about it, logically, the South London Line would be an indeal candidate for LOROL 'take'over', seeing as they now have the West London, North London and the East London...

[metman]

Well exactly. Pick two routes starting from Victoria for example and turn them into the Overground. Maybe when the 455s and 456s need replacing an order of high capacity 378s (or 379s?) could be introduced?

[Deleted]

SLL, first choice, maybe routes out to Sutton and the Tooting Loop [presently FCC]

[DrOne]

Not quite sure what you mean Metman? Moving existing Southern destinations from Victoria and making them extensions of the WLL? Or adding them onto the ELL and SLL at CJ?

[metman]

No, I've been trying to do a little bit of research into the SLL. I don't favour the 'U' shaped route. I also don't think connecting to the ELL or WLL is the answer. I would like to see high frequency routes from the 'burbs running to London termini. The South of London suffers because it is short of metro style services. Often long distance customers receive most of the benefits. A 12-15tph peak service should be possible with two set routes that can take pressure off the tube and bus services. As to capacity at Victoria, I'm not sure, someone with greater knowledge would have to decide on the terminus.

[Deleted]

Okay, the SLL service runs London Bridge - Victoria currently... Runs through Factory Junction... instead of going to Vic, go to Clapham Jct. At the other end make a new connection from South Bermondsey towards New Cross utilising overgrown former trackbed of the route through Bricklayers Arms - this might be a tight divergence, what with the Waste compound/recycling centre built in the vee of the LBSC and SE tracks. It's not really a heavilly used route. There's little else that can be done with the service currently.

Victoria is shortly to have major work done, roof replacement. Some platforms cannot accomodate 12 cars and I think this is an area Network Rail are looking at sorting out. They could get rid of at least half of the concourse, and bring platforms 9-19 back further, put the retail units on the mezzamine with access from platform 7 & 8; move the current booking office into the various offices on the side where the toilets& pub is now.

[DrOne]

I see Metman. That'll be hard, both in terms of route capacity and terminating capacity. I believe Victoria is fully packed, especially on the central side, and that's not considering the problems of the traffic into the underground. Essentially two underground lines should penetrate deeper into south london with good interchanges with the NR network.

[cetacean]

Feb 5, 2009 20:00:06 GMT @tubeoperator92 said:

At the other end make a new connection from South Bermondsey towards New Cross utilising overgrown former trackbed of the route through Bricklayers Arms - this might be a tight divergence, what with the Waste compound/recycling centre built in the vee of the LBSC and SE tracks. It's not really a heavilly used route. There's little else that can be done with the service currently.

I know the area pretty well, and I even have Google Maps open, and I don't understand this at all. What route are you proposing?

[Deleted]

I was thinking of a connection off the South Bermondsey line to face New Cross. Now looking at Google Maps, diverge off near Bolina Road, back of Millwall... Failing that, there is an old trackbed next to Ilderton Road/Hornshay Street, run that into New Cross Gate near Coldblow Lane...

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2009 20:35:23 GMT DrOne said:

I see Metman. That'll be hard, both in terms of route capacity and terminating capacity. I believe Victoria is fully packed, especially on the central side, and that's not considering the problems of the traffic into the underground. Essentially two underground lines should penetrate deeper into south London with good interchanges with the NR network.

I quite agree.
The Northern CX branch, should the line ever be segregated, going directly south and the Bakerloo going SE. Both could have interchanges with the SLL. Having previously commuted using the Southern franchise from Croydon, I can only say that a few underground routes that which do not involve those rather congested junctions just South of LB and Victoria would be most beneficial to the wider South East of England and naturally to South London too.

[metman]

and thus it brings us to the same old problem....

Extend already conjested tube lines further south or build new ones? Both at great cost.

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2009 21:10:24 GMT @tubeoperator92 said:

I was thinking of a connection off the South Bermondsey line to face New Cross. Now looking at Google Maps, diverge off near Bolina Road, back of Millwall... Failing that, there is an old trackbed next to Ilderton Road/Hornshay Street, run that into New Cross Gate near Coldblow Lane...

I don't really follow what this adds to the currently planned connection to the ELL? Surely a detour down to an extra change at New Cross isn't going to help anyone from the area get into town?

[Deleted]

Feb 5, 2009 22:16:28 GMT metman said:

and thus it brings us to the same old problem....

Extend already conjested tube lines further south or build new ones? Both at great cost.

I disagree. The Bakerloo is pretty empty going northward until Picadilly Circus. The CX branch is also not that busy and the two planned upgrades of the current NL will only improve services meaning less crowding. Should the line be fully segregated as as been long suggested, then there would be a real possibility of extending southward without having a detrimental effect on service.

However, I'm not adverse to additional lines too. But on a cost:benefit type analysis, I think the government are likely to favour the former. Crossrail 1 and 2 are the new lines that TFL are likley to be lobbying for in any case.

[norbitonflyer]

I don't see the point of building a connection between the SLL and New Cross when there is already one to Lewisham.

Running through services SLL/ELL, as is already under construction, is much more useful.

Extending "congested" tube lines into the suburbs will help - Take an example of an extension of the Victoria Line towards Croydon - many of the people using the extended tube line will have previously changed from the Southern to the tube at Victoria, so the extension will reduce congestion at Victoria, without having such a large increase in passengers on the Tube as you might suppose. Similarly an extension of the Bakerloo would reduce the pressure on Charing Cross (and Borough Market junction, as more trains could go to other termini)
As for Waterloo, that's what Chelney is for.

[Ben]

Problem is though NR runs fast and semi fast services and doesnt have many inner London stations anymore. Are there many all stations services from Caterham, for example? Maybe in 50 years time, if the tube actually gets the funding the government have said it would, we might see the Vic at Croyden, along with Chelney and the Northen split and the Bakerloo towards Denmark Hill.

[max]

NR has loads of inner London stations, at least as many as the Underground, and lots of all-stations services too, even in South London. The stations During peaks, quite a few trains skip stops, but I suspect this is really more for reasons of tradition and attempts to increase capacity rather than to give passengers faster trips into London. There seems to be a lot of engineering work at the moment, so it is hard to establish what intentions are, but at least half Caterham Trains call at all stations to London Bridge. New Cross Gate, Brockley, Forest Hill and Sydenham are all in the top 100 busiest NR stations in London, so it makes sense for one ot two trains to stop there.

Railways in South London have always been pretty miserable, with complicated everywhere-to-everywhere-else timetables that put off the general public, and really slow journeys. Compare Wimbledon to Blackfriars by District Line and by Thameslink, useless. Give me D Stock over a Class 455 any time.

But back to Overground, and it is looking less and less as though a proper Metro (6tph per branch) is ever going to happen, yes, there will be longer trains, but they probably would have got them without the help of London Overground, and they might have come with seats.

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2009 13:00:28 GMT max said:

But back to Overground, and it is looking less and less as though a proper Metro (6tph per branch) is ever going to happen, yes, there will be longer trains, but they probably would have got them without the help of London Overground, and they might have come with seats.

That's my fear as well. I'm really starting to worry we'll just end up with "silverlink, but with orange".