Connecting trains at Canning Town

[Deleted]

When traveling from Bank to Custom House you have to change trains at Canning Town. As the train slows down on the approach to Canning Town you can see the Beckton service just leaving. When you get off the train and look up at the train describer the next train to Beckton is in 9 minutes.
Why cant the train from Bank arrive at Canning Town first? When it leaves the Beckton train can then pull in from Royal Victoria.
When you travel the other way, as the Beckton - Canning Town arrives on the platform the Bank service has just departed on the other platform.
Standing around on Canning Town platforms in the middle of winter is not funny!
It surely cant be rocket science for DLR to come up with a better system than this?

[pib]

You will only have to change at Canning Town for a couple more weeks. Once Tower Gateway reopens through trains to Beckton will recommence.

[sammyj]

dlr-admin.appius.com/uploads/pressroom/ServicePoster_v4_aw.pdf

This was on the DLR site today.... there is still going to be Canning Town to Beckton trains as well as the Tower Gateway - Beckton service

[DrOne]

I've noticed this too. The Beckton train could wait at the siding just outside Canning Town.

The other thing that I've noticed is the reduction in Beckton frequency at peaks. Why is this? Lack of units for other services?

Also, there seem to be some counter-peak gaps of 20 minutes over the Bank-Woolwich stretch.

Edit: Just searched & seen that this was discussed in the Woolwich Arsenal extension thread: nobody knows. If the issue is units needed elsewhere during peaks, surely this would have affected the pre-upgrade service? And if this were the case, it would be impossible to restore Tower-Beckton alongside other services in the peaks until sufficient units arvive.

[astock5000]

Feb 20, 2009 16:04:22 GMT sammyj said:

dlr-admin.appius.com/uploads/pressroom/ServicePoster_v4_aw.pdf

This was on the DLR site today.... there is still going to be Canning Town to Beckton trains as well as the Tower Gateway - Beckton service

There were Canning Town - Beckton services before Tower Gateway closed. Eventually, they will become Stratford International - Beckton services.

[amershamsi]

Feb 20, 2009 22:51:17 GMT astock5000 said:

There were Canning Town - Beckton services before Tower Gateway closed. Eventually, they will become Stratford International - Beckton services.

Will they only run off-peak?

Can anyone tell me why the Beckton line would be more busy off-peak.

[mrfs42]

Feb 21, 2009 0:40:24 GMT @amershamsi said:

Feb 20, 2009 22:51:17 GMT astock5000 said:

There were Canning Town - Beckton services before Tower Gateway closed. Eventually, they will become Stratford International - Beckton services.

Will they only run off-peak?

Can anyone tell me why the Beckton line would be more busy off-peak.

Its not: need to 'lose' [1] the units somewhere.

[1] as in keep them in service [2], but get them out of the way somewhere.

_{Note: I've not quite seen/understood all the tips and wrinkles in DLR scheduling (yet!), but this is my best guess}

[2] once they are off - depot, why waste the pre-service checks?

[amershamsi]

Feb 21, 2009 1:56:39 GMT mrfs42 said:

Its not: need to 'lose' [1] the units somewhere.

[1] as in keep them in service [2], but get them out of the way somewhere.

_{Note: I've not quite seen/understood all the tips and wrinkles in DLR scheduling (yet!), but this is my best guess}

[2] once they are off - depot, why waste the pre-service checks?

So why not keep them running between Canning Town and Woolwich, as that is what they do in the peaks?

[mrfs42]

As I said, I'm still learning the ins and outs of the DLR timetable structure; I'm not able to 'guess' it as well as the UndergrounD - part of the problem is that there isn't a published WTT that shows all the interstices; howsoever I'm slowly working on one. Perhaps the off-peak loadings are better suited for Beckton originating traffic (and Woolwich in the peaks).

[amershamsi]

Feb 21, 2009 12:13:02 GMT mrfs42 said:

As I said, I'm still learning the ins and outs of the DLR timetable structure; I'm not able to 'guess' it as well as the UndergrounD - part of the problem is that there isn't a published WTT that shows all the interstices; howsoever I'm slowly working on one. Perhaps the off-peak loadings are better suited for Beckton originating traffic (and Woolwich in the peaks).

Which brings me back to my original question:
Can anyone tell me why the Beckton line would be more busy off-peak?

The answer is still out there - mrfs42 has some ideas of why these trains run, but hasn't explained the Beckton part of it.

[DrOne]

Thanks for persisting with this amershamsi. I'm puzzled too.

[Deleted]

I always thought they put them on so instead of having an untimetabled ad-hoc shuttle service for when ExCeL events were on, they just made it a regular scheduled service.

[mrfs42]

Feb 21, 2009 14:05:54 GMT @amershamsi said:

The answer is still out there - mrfs42 has some ideas of why these trains run, but hasn't explained the Beckton part of it.

I'm not witholding information! ;D I'm am busy working on it (as well drawing and calculating signalling diagrams, though not for the DLR).

Does anyone happen to know OTTOTH what the interpeak stabling is like at Beckton depot - if there is a routine of stock changeover between Poplar and Beckton depot that will explain the greater frequency of trains on the Beckton arm.



I'd place a good guess at trains working to Beckton, then going into the depot as a changeover - this would result in a net gain (IOW artificially increasing) in frequency to Beckton in the off peak, but as there is no need for interpeak stablers/changeover turns during the peak service the trips on the Beckton arm drop back to their normal level.

Anyone else got any idea?

[DrOne]

Feb 21, 2009 16:27:37 GMT mrfs42 said:

Feb 21, 2009 14:05:54 GMT @amershamsi said:

The answer is still out there - mrfs42 has some ideas of why these trains run, but hasn't explained the Beckton part of it.

I'm not witholding information! ;D I'm am busy working on it (as well drawing and calculating signalling diagrams, though not for the DLR).

Does anyone happen to know OTTOTH what the interpeak stabling is like at Beckton depot - if there is a routine of stock changeover between Poplar and Beckton depot that will explain the greater frequency of trains on the Beckton arm.



I'd place a good guess at trains working to Beckton, then going into the depot as a changeover - this would result in a net gain (IOW artificially increasing) in frequency to Beckton in the off peak, but as there is no need for interpeak stablers/changeover turns during the peak service the trips on the Beckton arm drop back to their normal level.

Anyone else got any idea?

I think I see what you mean in your last paragraph. BUT would stock changeover justify a 5 min service in both directions for the entire inter-peak period? Also, that would require the inter-peak Beckton-Canning Town shuttles to run through to Poplar and back out via the Stratford line. I don't think they do that - AFAIK they just run Canning Town-Beckton.

Re: not wasting the pre-service checks. Do you mean pre-Stratford international service or pre-service for the new units? If it were the former, surely this would include increased frequency on the Woolwich branch? For the latter to be true, the new units would only run Beckton-Canning Town. I think they can be seen on other routes too.

So I'm back to the original theory that units are needed elsewhere during peaks, and are put to use running inter-peak shuttles. Even if that were the case, this would require some through-running Bank-Gallions/Becktons on the peak shoulders. And again what has changed to cause a shortage of units, as this couldn't have been an issue when the Tower-Beckton service used to run.

And I still can't make sense of the counter-peak 20min gaps on the Woolwich service.

[DrOne]

Could this be the reason?

Was the Stratford service increased to 5min intervals after the upgrade work began and Tower-Beckton withdrawn?

If so then this might explain the shift in units away from the Beckton service during peaks. Previously there might have been sufficient units to run a full peak service including Tower-Beckton, Stratford-Crossharbour/Lewisham and Bank-KGV at around 6-7.5tph as well as the Bank-Lewisham service.

Consider the no of units now required to run Stratford-Crossharbour/Lewisham at an upgraded 12tph, throw in the peak 3tph Blackwall (ex Woolwich) reversers on top of the recently opened 6pth Bank-Woolwich trains, and the rest of the Bank-Lewishams. This might all only be possible by sacrificing half of the Beckton-Canning Town service at peak time.

A couple of other points:
1. If this is the case then this might mean the DLR is short of the number of units required to run Tower-Beckton. Otherwise a 12tph service would be runnig all day Beckton-Canning Town and perhaps even to Woolwich. This would be consistent with rumours that Tower Gateway will host the Woolwich service when it opens, with the Canning Town-Beckton shuttle continuing until completion of grade separation at Westferry/WIQ/Poplar junction (and ? delivery of extra units). Ultimately Tower-Beckton might have to wait until completion of all works.

2. Furthermore this means a lot more units are expected to arrive before a fully upgraded service can run (with 3-car extensions and Statford International extension).

3. Although it is counter-intuitive to run higher frequencies in the off-peak peaks, it is better than a lower frequency all day. The jubilee line provides more capacity from the city to Canning Town than the DLR does anyway so a through service isn't too essential.