Remember how quiet & empty the Jubilee used to be?

[Deleted]

I was just things how quiet and empty the Jubille line used to be backk during the mid-80s. I can't recall it ever being crowded, as such, on the Baker-Street - Charing Cross stretch. Even during the peak hours.

The trains seemed to run really infrequently as well. Almost every 12 - 15 minutes at times.

Compare and contrast with it now where almost exactly the opposite is true! I'm not aware of there being any time during the day when it's not crowded. I've known it to be stuffed full even on a sunday morining aroudn 07:20.

What are others' memories of the line back in the 80s? It wasn't just me, was it? It really was eerily quiet - almost unimaginably so by today's standards.

[ek583]

Don't know how it was back then, but even today I reckon it's still not as busy as some of the other deep-level tube lines. I mean even at the heart of the evening peak, I feel that the Jubilee still has lighter loads than the likes of Central, Northern and Victoria lines.

[Deleted]

I remember that too, I was relatively young when the extension opened but I took a trip to London with my parents around 1997-8, and the Jubilee line was very quiet. I remember my parents remarking that they were surprised it was still open (obviously not being aware of the imminent extension!)

[mrfs42]

May 4, 2009 10:16:35 GMT @tubeflight said:

The trains seemed to run really infrequently as well. Almost every 12 - 15 minutes at times.

I think you're mis-remebering the frequency of the Stanmore trains (which would be every 12-15 min), factor in the Willesden Green and Wembley Park reversers and you end up with a much better frequency.

IIRC the reversing pattern was Stanmore, Wembley Park, Stanmore, Willesden Green every 15 minutes. I suppose it depends from what end of the line you are remebering the service intervals.

[Deleted]

The western part of Jubilee (west of Waterloo) is still rather quiet outside of peak hours - in my experience it usually gets overloaded between Waterloo and Canary Wharf.

It is quite a pain in the peaks though - I'm travelling from St. John's Wood and sometimes have to skip 2-3 trains because there is just no space to squeeze myself in...

And with impending apocalypse re-opening of East London Railway I bet Canada Water to Canary Wharf will become even more of a battlefield.

[Deleted]

May 4, 2009 12:20:44 GMT futurix said:

The western part of Jubilee (west of Waterloo) is still rather quiet outside of peak hours - in my experience it usually gets overloaded between Waterloo and Canary Wharf.

It is quite a pain in the peaks though - I'm travelling from St. John's Wood and sometimes have to skip 2-3 trains because there is just no space to squeeze myself in...

And with impending apocalypse re-opening of East London Railway I bet Canada Water to Canary Wharf will become even more of a battlefield.

Let's hope ATO goes online before the ELL reopens, or we'll have another competitor for 'most overcrowded line'. Odd sayings round here reckon that might not happen. b*gger.

[Deleted]

If ELR will re-open in mid-2010 (and not earlier!) and ATO on Jubilee will be (just) one year late (as the latest predictions go) - prepare for 6 months of mayhem!

[metman]

I remember as a child the 1983 stock running every 2-4 mins, it was very frequent. One the Met were would over take as many as 4 Jubilee trains between Finchley Road and Wembley Park!

The line was quiet however. Charing Cross was always quiet!

[Chris M]

May 4, 2009 12:20:44 GMT futurix said:

It is quite a pain in the peaks though - I'm travelling from St. John's Wood and sometimes have to skip 2-3 trains because there is just no space to squeeze myself in...

Trying to get to Stratford in the evening peak from London Bridge and points east is just the same. Even that's not as bad as the Central Line though - I've had to let five eastbounds go at Liverpool Street before now. You're not even always guaranteed to get on an Epping train at Leytonstone, especially as Hainault feels like it gets more trains (and thus less of them are crush loaded, merely full)

[Deleted]

I am usually only on the Jubilee Line if there is something amiss with either the Northern or the DLR. The Waterloo - Canning Town stretch is usually absoultely heaving when I'm on it.

One of my few other reasons for taking the Jubilee Line will be removed when bus route 324 starts.

[Deleted]

May 5, 2009 9:56:33 GMT Chris M said:

May 4, 2009 12:20:44 GMT futurix said:

It is quite a pain in the peaks though - I'm travelling from St. John's Wood and sometimes have to skip 2-3 trains because there is just no space to squeeze myself in...

Trying to get to Stratford in the evening peak from London Bridge and points east is just the same. Even that's not as bad as the Central Line though - I've had to let five eastbounds go at Liverpool Street before now. You're not even always guaranteed to get on an Epping train at Leytonstone, especially as Hainault feels like it gets more trains (and thus less of them are crush loaded, merely full)

For someone traveling towards Hainsult, it feels like Epping gets more trains!

[Ben]

Hainsult

Nice pun!

[Deleted]

Given the large number of companies that have moved to Canary Wharf in the past 10 years, the weight of traffic on the Jubilee should be no surprise really; I rely on it myself. Whenever the Jubilee has problems at rush hour, you can really see the effect, as Bank often has to close due to the surge towards the DLR!

I do agree that the Central line is often worse, though!

[ajamieson]

May 5, 2009 14:08:13 GMT @ribbit said:

Given the large number of companies that have moved to Canary Wharf in the past 10 years

Many of them have either collapsed or are now owned by the taxpayer, which should help reduce demand somewhat

Agree with Chris M about the pinch points: London Bridge to Stratford on the Jubilee, Liverpool Street to Leytonstone on the Central. Both are far worse than the District, or the Bakerloo at peak times in my experience. The Victoria between Victoria and Oxford Circus can be hellish, mainly due to the bovine stupidity of passengers failing to pass along the platform or attempting to board with fridge-sized suitcases at the height of the peak

[Chris M]

The crush loading on the eastbound Central in the evening peak happens from at least Bank (and probably west of there), and at the front half of the train at least, until South Woodford/Woodford on the Epping Branch. I don't know about the Hainauilt line.

[Deleted]

May 5, 2009 15:02:55 GMT @ajamieson said:

May 5, 2009 14:08:13 GMT @ribbit said:

Given the large number of companies that have moved to Canary Wharf in the past 10 years

Many of them have either collapsed or are now owned by the taxpayer, which should help reduce demand somewhat

If only that were true; to my knowledge, the only big one that went down in CW was Lehman Bros, and there's still plenty of people in their building!

[Deleted]

May 4, 2009 11:51:52 GMT mrfs42 said:

May 4, 2009 10:16:35 GMT @tubeflight said:

The trains seemed to run really infrequently as well. Almost every 12 - 15 minutes at times.

I think you're mis-remebering the frequency of the Stanmore trains (which would be every 12-15 min), factor in the Willesden Green and Wembley Park reversers and you end up with a much better frequency.

IIRC the reversing pattern was Stanmore, Wembley Park, Stanmore, Willesden Green every 15 minutes. I suppose it depends from what end of the line you are remebering the service intervals.

You may well be right - but I remember the Charing Cross - Baker Street section as also being very infrequent compared with other lines. I'm sure I easily remember standing at Green park and often waiting over 8 minutes.

[Deleted]

May 4, 2009 21:06:34 GMT metman said:

I remember as a child the 1983 stock running every 2-4 mins, it was very frequent.

I think it did get more frequent towards the latterdays of the 1983 stock's reign.

I'm more remembering the days of the 1972mk2 stock.

[Deleted]

May 4, 2009 21:06:34 GMT metman said:

The line was quiet however. Charing Cross was always quiet!

I wonder how busy Charing Corss (Jubilee) would be were it to re-open now? I suspect it would easily be as heaving-full as the rest of the line, now - as times have changed beyond all recognition since then and ridership is way up across the system.

[towerman]

When first opened the service pattern for the Jubilee was Stanmore,Wembley,Willesden,West Hampstead.

[ruislip]

May 5, 2009 18:09:01 GMT towerman said:

When first opened the service pattern for the Jubilee was Stanmore,Wembley,Willesden,West Hampstead.

Wasn't that only during the morning peaks?

[suncloud]

May 5, 2009 15:26:54 GMT Chris M said:

The crush loading on the eastbound Central in the evening peak happens from at least Bank (and probably west of there), and at the front half of the train at least, until South Woodford/Woodford on the Epping Branch. I don't know about the Hainauilt line.

I was going to say that the sometimes at Leytonstone towards Epping I've seen the front half full of standees, but towards the rear there being seats available

[citysig]

Before the extension, the line had some of the best punctuality / reliability figures on the Underground - equalled only by the East London Line.

Some early Sunday morning frequencies were more like every 20 minutes between trains

West Hampstead was a regular destination, and was hated by drivers. You only just got going and you were terminating again, and had to walk through the low/cramped 83 stock whilst in the siding at West Hampstead, cracking your knuckles on the arm rests as you went. One timetable had trains stuck on Charing Cross-West Hampstead trips for large chunks of the day. It must be one of the few occasions where if you asked a driver to extend to another destination - and hence do more work - they would be only too willing ;D

The line was controlled solely from Baker Street, and normally solely by the signallers in the Signalling Control Centre (of which I was one). We basically "ran" the service in terms of regulating it, getting it back to right-time after incidents etc. etc. A wealth of experience existed in the room which enable some pretty swift service recovery to take place. The whole line worked as a very tight-nit team.

But in late 1999... don't get me started... ;D ;D

[slugabed]

May 6, 2009 8:46:41 GMT @citysig said:

Some early Sunday morning were more like every 20 minutes between trains

This wasn't so unusual on the tube generally in the 70s.I can well remember waiting at Clapham Sth like a wally for 20 mins on a Sunday morning,having heard the previous train pull out as I came down the (then wooden!) escalator.
Mind you.I'd be the only soul on the platform,watching the "Self-Winding Clock" tick by,but with no idea as to when the next train would come.
By the way....Does anyone know anything about those clocks on the Morden extension,and why they are called "Self-Winding"? Aren't they just electric?
They're still there,American-made and very nice-loking.

[mrfs42]

May 6, 2009 8:46:41 GMT @citysig said:

West Hampstead was a regular destination, and was hated by drivers. You only just got going and you were terminating again, and had to walk through the low/cramped 83 stock whilst in the siding at West Hampstead, cracking your knuckles on the arm rests as you went. One timetable had trains stuck on Charing Cross-West Hampstead trips for large chunks of the day. It must be one of the few occasions where if you asked a driver to extend to another destination - and hence do more work - they would be only too willing ;D

Really? Although I believe you, I can only find very limited evidence for West Hampstead reversers on paper:
WTT 6 (16/5/88): 335/0745
WTT 7 (16/2/89): 337/0844½, 324/0854½, 325/1734, 304/1744, 311/1754½

WTT 8 (29/8/89) has the self-contained pattern of short turnbacks either side of Charing Cross during the peaks, and as the frequency reduces during the peak shoulders into/out of the lunch slack the pattern changes to 'if you reversed short last trip, we'll let you go to Stanmore', with a few frequency adjusters of 'oh, you only made it as far as Willesden Green last trip, we'll let you go out to Wembley Park, and if you're really good you might eventually get to Stanmore the trip after that'.

By WTT 11 (28/9/92) the West Hampstead reversers seem to have gone, although the service was more centred around a nucleus of trains doing a pattern of Willesden Green - Charing Cross - Wembley Park (and vice versa), with no chance of an escape out to the fleshpots of Stanmore. Happily for the T/Ops, this seems to have changed in WTT 12 (27/3/94) with trains alternating either side of Charing Cross - short trip/long trip/short trip/long trip. In fact out of all the scheduled trips short trips either side of a Charing Cross arrival/departure only happen 11 times on the weekday galley - unfortunately this situation didn't last long and the short trip trap comes back in WTT 13 (29/5/94); however, the longer journey times due to the slightly iffy embankment south of Queensbury (3½ min added both ways) explain this shift in reversing pattern. No booked West Hampstead reversers, though. The same is true of WTT 14 (28/5/95), although the Queensbury slack had gone, there was another minute added between Green Park and Charing Cross (which was explained in the next WTT - 15 (2/6/96) as being due to the step-plate junction for the JLE; this is repeated in the preamble for WTT 16 (26/1/97) with the same short trip trap and no West Hampstead turnbacks. The same is also true of WTT 17 (28/9/97), which ws only 'tweaked' due to the issuing of Met WTT 307 - which brought in a whole raft of revisons (2 more in service during the busies and 'stepping back' brought in at Aldgate). The last 'old' Jubilee WTT (18:29/3/98) also had no booked West Hampstead shorties and the short trip trap; even though the step plate had been completed, so ½ min was taken away from Green Park - CHX - Green Park, but added both ways Willesden Green - West Hampstead, so the WTT had still stabilised at these short distance shuttles interspersed with alternate Stanmores. Of course, the JLE was impending so there was no need to return back to the glory days of WTT 12, where the T/Ops got more of a chance to see the scenery!

The short trip trap has only really (after a cursory look through the library) been repeated during the second phase of the Wembley Park works (TTN 2/05) when there were quite a few North Greenwich - Willesden Green shorties during the peaks to balance out the effects of non-stopping the Northbound platform at Wembley Park.

[Deleted]

I remember the old Jubilee (as it were) back from when I was a teenager.......would have spent more time on it had I realised how much things would change...at the time I was concentrating more on the Northern and the 59/72 stock!!! Wonderful times. One thing about this West Hampstead business...in the time I knew the line before the extension, the only crew point was Wembley Park. How did crew changes happen, or was the odd Wembley/Stanmore chucked in the timetable to do this? Can see a fair bit of cushion action if some trains just did WHMPs on the bounce.

[towerman]

There was a joint Jubilee/Bakerloo trainmen's depot who were road trained on both lines,several times in the first year of operation Bakerloos ended up at Neasden overnight due to problems north of Baker St on the Bakerloo.

[citysig]

May 6, 2009 12:03:28 GMT mrfs42 said:

Really? Although I believe you, I can only find very limited evidence for West Hampstead reversers on paper:

I believe you too, as of course you have copies of the timetables which I do not possess.

Not quite sure why/how/where the West Hampsteads existed. My time in the SCC was from January 1998 until last year, so in terms of the old jubilee we are talking the 20 or so months (WTTs 17 & 18) that I worked it.

They certainly weren't a figment of my imagination, but maybe I am getting confused with the regular short-tripping (for service recovery) rather than booked trips. It was a long, long time ago ;D

This said, maybe the Jubilee didn't run that sweetly back then ;D

[North End]

May 7, 2009 10:30:22 GMT @citysig said:

May 6, 2009 12:03:28 GMT mrfs42 said:

Really? Although I believe you, I can only find very limited evidence for West Hampstead reversers on paper:

I believe you too, as of course you have copies of the timetables which I do not possess.

Not quite sure why/how/where the West Hampsteads existed. My time in the SCC was from January 1998 until last year, so in terms of the old jubilee we are talking the 20 or so months (WTTs 17 & 18) that I worked it.

They certainly weren't a figment of my imagination, but maybe I am getting confused with the regular short-tripping (for service recovery) rather than booked trips. It was a long, long time ago ;D

This said, maybe the Jubilee didn't run that sweetly back then ;D

I can recall West Hampstead reversers being pretty common in the peaks, so they're definitely not a figment of the imagination.

[mrfs42]

I can see the viability of short-tripping a set at West Hampstead, if the service has gone to pot:

(assuming the booked allowance of 9 min for reversing)

• turning back a Willesden Green train at West Hampstead will claw back 7 minutes.
  
• turning back a Wembley Park train will give you 20½ minutes back
  

(these figures are based on the 1989 allowances, the later figures are 8 and 21½).

Short-tripping Willesden Green to a West Hampstead in favour of the traffic flow would be a very sensible thing to do (on the face of it shorting a Wembley Park isn't, but the Met. would be of use to punters wanting to travel south from Wembley Park in the morning busy, and there would be a Stanmore originator along in about 6 minutes to sweep up those at Dollis Hill et al).

However, I've never had to worry about that sort of traffic density - just moving the odd crossing (and making sure the signalbox is open at the place the new crossing is going to take place).