mrfs42
71E25683904T 172E6538094T
Big Hair Day
Posts: 5,922
|
Post by mrfs42 on Jun 3, 2009 14:28:12 GMT
Quoted from the 2009 TS in Traffic Hours thread: At standalone readers on the DLR a couple of times I've touched out, and then at then a short time later touched in again at the same station. The system has regarded this as another touch out, and I've been charged £4 at my destination for not touching in. Can you remember what DLR station that was? And any idea of the total time that elapsed between the first touch-in (on the first journey) and the final touch-out (on the second journey)? I've got a few ideas on how the system works when it comes to standalone Oyster readers, such as those found on the DLR, but I haven't really extensively tested them out. (I'm afraid that many discussions I've taken of my discussions on this issue have happened in "another place", as they say in Parliament!) However my thinking is that at 'straightforward' DLR stations, where there's no interchange with other DLR routes or LU lines, the standalone readers offer a 'hard' entry or exit - in other words when you touch on them it does one or the other depending on the state of your Oyster card (in other words depending on whether it's been touched-in recently at another station where the journey started). However at DLR stations that offer some sort of interchange - whether that be interchange with other DLR routes or out-of-station interchange (OSI) with LU - I think the standalone Oyster readers might be set up in interchange mode', which means that you can touch on them multiple times (any of them at the station, not just the particular reader) but it will only ever be counted as a touch-in or touch-out - what I've called a 'soft' entry or exit in the past. Places where I think this may happen are Canary Wharf DLR, Poplar, West India Quay and Westferry (the latter two particularly for those who may have missed changing at Poplar). In each case when you change between platforms you pass standalone Oyster readers and I think you pass over the 'red line' which on the DLR denominates the 'fare paid' area (though to be honest I can't quite remember the arrangement at WIQ) - passengers might therefore think they have to touch-out and in again, so the system is set to be 'tolerant' of this. I spoke earlier of these standalone readers having an 'interchange mode', but it might be more complicated than that and they may have several variations of 'interchange mode' depending upon the situation - I'm specifically thinking of whether or not there's an OSI in the mix as well - e.g. Bow Church may be set up for a 'hard' entry or exit with regards to DLR only passengers, but is obviously also set-up for an OSI with LU at Bow Road. My thoughts are a mixture of observation and speculation - I need to do some more experimentation, and obviously be willing to donate some money to TfL (or else extract it back from them). I'm afraid to say many of the discussions I've been part of on this issue have happened in "another place", as they say in Parliament... I hope that saying this isn't regarded as heresy against the DD Forum and I'm not kicked off!  |
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Jun 3, 2009 15:04:35 GMT
Re: platform tickets, I will gladly purchase one when I come across a member of gateline staff who knows what one is.
|
|
|
|
Post by miztert on Jun 3, 2009 15:51:22 GMT
Re: platform tickets, I will gladly purchase one when I come across a member of gateline staff who knows what one is. I don't think LU actually does platform tickets as such. Though I have seen the phrase mentioned once on LU publicity... read on. At Canary Wharf Jubilee line, there are signs (on the movable 'poster boards') that make specific mention of "platform tickets" in a rather unusual way - there are two gatelines at the station, one that serves the main western entrance and one that serves the eastern entrance (well there are actually two eastern street level entrances but I'm talking about the below ground gateline situation). There is a poster near the eastern gateline at least that states something like "this is not a public right-of-way - you will be charged for a platform ticket if you enter and then immediately exit the station using your Oyster card". Obviously "platform ticket" is simply the best phrase they came up with to describe the situation when devising this sign so as to make it easily understood to the public, I'm not suggesting the phrase has any official meaning with regards to LU ticketing or Oyster PAYG ticketing. FWIW, I did test it out by going through one gateline and out the other when using Oyster PAYG one day - my card had already reached a cap earlier that day and the CW to CW 'fare' then appeared as £0.00 - which to my mind suggests that this "platform ticket" is simply treated as a normal journey, albeit one where you don't actually go anywhere! Whether this works everywhere else is another question - however as I said I have entered and then shortly afterwards exited a handful of stations (all had gates) and I didn't get any £4 maximum (penalty) fares applied, I was just charged for a 'journey to nowhere' instead. My basic advice to anyone who wants to romp around the LU or DLR networks doing unusual things - such as making long round trips without exiting at any stations or hanging around on platforms for ages - is to just get a Day Travelcard. The Oyster PAYG system is (not unreasonably) designed around the premise that people are going from A to B after all! |
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,772
|
Post by Chris M on Jun 3, 2009 16:50:44 GMT
Can you remember what DLR station that was? And any idea of the total time that elapsed between the first touch-in (on the first journey) and the final touch-out (on the second journey)? I remember this happening at Canary Wharf DLR, my journey was Debden - Canary Wharf [~10 minutes in shopping centre] Canary Wharf - Bank. The second occasion was at Custom House, where my journey was Debden - Devons Road [~2 minutes outside station] Devons Road - Custom House [~5 minutes outside station] Custom House - Gloucester Road (interchanging at Bank and Holborn and stepping back 2 trains at Leicester square). I can't help you with any other timings unfortunately. Not related to the DLR but I was once charged (and automatically refunded) £8 for a Paddington Praed Street to Bayswater journey. I travelled from Debden - Paddington Bishop's Road (changing at Liverpool Street and stepping back one train at Baker Street). I then spent around 20-30 minutes outside the LU paid area at Paddington mainline station, and then travelled from Paddington Praed Street to Bayswater. The Oyster system had treated the Bishop's Road to Praed Street as an OSI, but the 2 hours since touching in at Debden elapsed between touching in at Paddington and touching out at Bayswater. |
|
|
|
Post by Tomcakes on Jun 3, 2009 17:33:56 GMT
My basic advice to anyone who wants to romp around the LU or DLR networks doing unusual things - such as making long round trips without exiting at any stations or hanging around on platforms for ages - is to just get a Day Travelcard. The Oyster PAYG system is (not unreasonably) designed around the premise that people are going from A to B after all! If only we could load a Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card. I suppose that would lose revenue, though. |
|
slugabed
Zu lang am schnuller.
Posts: 1,480
|
Post by slugabed on Jun 3, 2009 18:13:19 GMT
Re: platform tickets, I will gladly purchase one when I come across a member of gateline staff who knows what one is. There was an article on Radio4 the other day about a bridge in Sheffield,part of the station,used as a short-cut by local residents.Not a problem on an open station,but there were about to be installed what were described as "LT-style" barriers,closing the bridge to all but ticket-holders. The bridge was not a public right-of-way,but one solution offered was to issue a "bridge pass" to local residents,and also for such passes to be issued at the barrier to those who asked for one,to be surrendered at the barrier at the far end of the bridge. Perhaps this is what the sign at Canary Wharf meant? |
|
|
|
Post by miztert on Jun 3, 2009 19:14:55 GMT
Can you remember what DLR station that was? And any idea of the total time that elapsed between the first touch-in (on the first journey) and the final touch-out (on the second journey)? I remember this happening at Canary Wharf DLR, my journey was Debden - Canary Wharf [~10 minutes in shopping centre] Canary Wharf - Bank. Hmm. Can't quite figure that one out. Going by my thinking (and assuming that you touched-out then a little later touched-in at CW), if the second touch on a reader at CW was regarded by the system as being a continuation of the original journey (i.e. because you were changing between DLR routes at CW), then it should have simply regarded your onward journey to Bank as another leg in that original journey. And if I've got it all wrong and the readers at CW are set up for a 'hard' entry and exit, then touching on them twice should have resulted in the system ending the first journey then starting a new second journey. I'll ponder on that one. The second occasion was at Custom House, where my journey was Debden - Devons Road [~2 minutes outside station] Devons Road - Custom House [~5 minutes outside station] Custom House - Gloucester Road (interchanging at Bank and Holborn and stepping back 2 trains at Leicester square). Interesting - again I take it that you touched-out and then touched-in at both Devons Road and Custom House. Neither of those two stations could be regarded as an interchange between different DLR routes so by my thinking the standalone readers would be set up for a 'hard' entry and exit - in other words, touching on them would definitively start or finish a journey, as there's no possibility of that original journey continuing because they're not interchange stations. So I can't quite fathom this one out either - unless again I've got it fundamentally wrong, and the standalone Oyster readers at DLR stations are set up to allow for journeys to continue regardless of how many times you touch on the reader meaning that your original journey from Debden timed out. But I'm almost certain that the readers are not set up like that. I shall have to investigate further! I can't help you with any other timings unfortunately. Not related to the DLR but I was once charged (and automatically refunded) £8 for a Paddington Praed Street to Bayswater journey. I travelled from Debden - Paddington Bishop's Road (changing at Liverpool Street and stepping back one train at Baker Street). I then spent around 20-30 minutes outside the LU paid area at Paddington mainline station, and then travelled from Paddington Praed Street to Bayswater. The Oyster system had treated the Bishop's Road to Praed Street as an OSI, but the 2 hours since touching in at Debden elapsed between touching in at Paddington and touching out at Bayswater. Yes, that's quite straightforward. There's obviously long been an OSI at Paddington to deal with the separate H&C platforms, and of course more recently to deal with Oyster PAYG being accepted on FGW's suburban services from the mainline station. The time limit has since been changed to two and a half hours, and it's going to be changed again though this time (ho ho) it'll be more complicated, with varying time limits depending on how many zones you've travelled through and indeed what day and time of day it is, plus possibly extra time allowance added on when travelling on National Rail services (when they all eventually accept Oyster PAYG, that is!). This change is due to happen in September (information garnered from the results of a FOI request made by a poster in another forum). |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2009 19:24:50 GMT
Re: platform tickets, I will gladly purchase one when I come across a member of gateline staff who knows what one is. I don't think LU actually does platform tickets as such. They do - on the large passenger-operated ticket machines, have a look under the 'Other tickets' (or similar) section - a Platform Ticket is £1. I don't know how long they've been available from these machines, but in 1990 an LU Platform Ticket cost 25p (when a BR Platform Ticket was 10p). |
|
|
|
Post by miztert on Jun 3, 2009 19:46:05 GMT
A separate reply to address another couple of issues... If only we could load a Day Travelcard onto an Oyster card. I suppose that would lose revenue, though. But there's absolutely no point in offering this - if people want a Day Travelcard then they can buy a Day Travelcard. Sure, it doesn't come on a snazzy Oyster card, but so what?! Anyway, if Day Travelcards could be loaded on Oyster cards then the train companies would have used it as another excuse not to get their act in gear in accepting Oyster PAYG on all National Rail routes in London - one of the big advantages of Oyster PAYG is capping, but if Day Travelcards could be loaded on Oyster, the TOCs might well just point at that and say something rubbish like 'where's the need for Oyster PAYG?' Plus it would also add in extra confusion for passengers, who might then start wanting horrendously complicated stuff like upgrading their capped Oyster card to a Day Travelcard (from a back-room systems standpoint this would be nigh-on impossible anyway). Then there'd be the issue of people with say a zones 1&2 Day Travelcard on their Oyster card wanting to use it beyond those zones - so they could use PAYG to automatically acquire a ticket extension to get out to say Heathrow in zone 6, but they couldn't use it to get out to East Croydon in zone 5 because PAYG is basically not accepted on any National Rail routes south of the river. (Sure, this issue applies to holders of season Travelcards on Oyster as well, but they're likely to be slightly more knowledgeable about the system and also are more likely to have the need or desire to travel outside of their zones during the monthly or whatever validity of their season Travelcard.) Far simpler to just offer Day Travelcards on paper, and get the train companies to accept Oyster PAYG. Which they will, eventually... [...] The bridge was not a public right-of-way,but one solution offered was to issue a "bridge pass" to local residents,and also for such passes to be issued at the barrier to those who asked for one,to be surrendered at the barrier at the far end of the bridge. Perhaps this is what the sign at Canary Wharf meant? Hi slugabed - yes I've read about the controversial situation at Sheffield station, but no - the sign at Canary Wharf explicitly referred to people using their Oyster cards to get through both sets of gates (I'll try and remember to get a photo of it sometime). I presume it was produced as a response to some mouthy complaints from a few of the know-it-all/ know-nothing wideboys who hang around the Wharf. There's nothing really to be gained by using this as a short-cut, unlike the bridge over the station in Sheffield. However I know that at one time there was a similar situation at Southwark tube station. For those who don't know Southwark station, it's basically got two entrances, both of which have their own gateline - one is from the street (corner of The Cut and Blackfriars Road), the other is an entrance reached directly from the platforms of Waterloo East - there is no access to the street from this entrance (though you can see it out the window!). It's worth noting that the gateline at the Waterloo East entrance was an LU gateline - there's no National Rail gateline here (nor indeed at the other main entrance to Waterloo East). Passes however were issued to holders of National Rail-only season tickets to allow them to leave Waterloo East by passing through Southwark tube station - the pass obviously opened both gatelines, and so allowed holders to use Southwark station as a short cut. I've no idea if such a pass is still available - I might ask there next time I'm in the area. I'm sorry, I've drifted off topic again! Though the first half of this post was definitely on-topic(ish), as it dealt with Oysters. |
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,772
|
Post by Chris M on Jun 3, 2009 19:54:49 GMT
Regarding Sheffield station, the exact same system has been in operation at Guildford since at least 1999 and probably a lot longer than that. I think it gives you about 20 minutes to cross from one side to the other, which is ample time for all but the absolute slowest of the slowest walkers.
|
|
|
|
Post by miztert on Jun 3, 2009 19:57:36 GMT
How does it work at Guildford - i.e. what type of ticket is issued, and how is it issued?
|
|
Chris M
Global Moderator
Forum Quizmaster
Always happy to receive quiz ideas and pictures by email or PM
Posts: 19,772
|
Post by Chris M on Jun 3, 2009 20:23:42 GMT
From what I remember (and I've not been there since about 2000) a platform ticket was issued by a staff member at one end and collected by a staff member at the other end. The staff were operating manual "barrier" lines (I don't remember there being physical barriers, but things could have changed in 9 years).
|
|
|
|
Post by miztert on Jun 3, 2009 21:31:25 GMT
Ah, there are automatic gates at Guildford nowadays - but that doesn't prohibit there being the same/ a similar arrangement in place.
|
|
At standalone readers on the DLR a couple of times I've touched out, and then at then a short time later touched in again at the same station. The system has regarded this as another touch out, and I've been charged £4 at my destination for not touching in.
