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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 11, 2009 15:06:08 GMT
Incidentally, why is Wood Lane not shown as an interchange on the new line diagrams? (Gt. Portland St.) - no Jubilee at Westminster - no Bakerloo at Embankment - Chesham still as shuttle! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2009 15:29:25 GMT
- no Jubilee at Westminster That's not strange, isn't the Jub going to Charing Cross from Green Park? Afaik, that's no westminster  ;D |
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Post by 21146 on Nov 11, 2009 18:44:27 GMT
I did a small survey today around the north side of the Circle Line. Signs changed to show the Circle to Hammersmith at Liverpool Street, Barbican, Farringdon, Kings Cross (but not trackside), Euston Square, Great Portland Street, Baker Street and Edgware Road. This of course removes those final traces of the East London Line on line diagrams at certain locations. Less welcome is the introduction of River Services "boat" pier symbols, given that these mainly serve tourist cruise operations and are not public transport. This seems an awful lot of erxpense to go to for a service pattern which has never yet been trialed in the rush hour. Surely stickers could have sufficed until 2010? No sign of any car diagrams being amended yet. The biggest sticking point will be the destination blinds, since most C Stock T/Ops won't even change blinds at the terminus it seems, let alone on-route. Whitechapel now has a double arrow symbol - I thought the LO Design Manual said stations on the 'core' ELL would not carry these as they're not part of the NR network, so maybe it's for Crossrail? Highbury & Islington has been completely re-signed, eliminanting many old and interesting examples which used to refer to the "Eastern Region" etc, whilst outside a new illuminated 'totem' on a pole shows the LU, LO and NR symbols. www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4096248034/www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4095473957/www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4096230536/www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4095414847/ |
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Post by 21146 on Nov 11, 2009 18:46:41 GMT
Incidentally, why is Wood Lane not shown as an interchange on the new line diagrams? (Gt. Portland St.) - no Jubilee at Westminster - no Bakerloo at Embankment - Chesham still as shuttle! Presumably Baker Street is the designated interchange point for the Bakerloo and Jubilee Lines and passengers are not to be encouraged to travel the long way around via the Inner Rail (with an enforced change of trains at Edgware Road)? Oddly this sign has no NR double arrow at Paddington (Praed Street), line names in singular, and a 'river' interchange at Victoria! www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4096216722/ |
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Nov 11, 2009 20:06:37 GMT
That overground roundle seems very red...
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Post by uzairjubilee on Nov 11, 2009 20:14:38 GMT
(Gt. Portland St.) - no Jubilee at Westminster - no Bakerloo at Embankment - Chesham still as shuttle! Presumably Baker Street is the designated interchange point for the Bakerloo and Jubilee Lines and passengers are not to be encouraged to travel the long way around via the Inner Rail (with an enforced change of trains at Edgware Road)? But shouldn't passengers still know that the Jubilee calls at Westminster, regardless of travel time? |
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Post by norbitonflyer on Nov 11, 2009 20:29:04 GMT
Presumably Baker Street is the designated interchange point for the Bakerloo and Jubilee Lines and passengers are not to be encouraged to travel the long way around via the Inner Rail (with an enforced change of trains at Edgware Road)? But shouldn't passengers still know that the Jubilee calls at Westminster, regardless of travel time? Why would anyone at GPS need to know that? In each case a change at Baker Street is better. There's no Bakerloo shown at either of the Paddingtons, presumably for the same reason. |
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Post by 21146 on Nov 11, 2009 20:34:35 GMT
If you look carefully you'll see that all modern LU line diagrams follow this principle.
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Post by 21146 on Nov 11, 2009 20:35:31 GMT
That overground roundle seems very red... Bad lighting. |
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Post by uzairjubilee on Nov 11, 2009 21:30:40 GMT
If you look carefully you'll see that all modern LU line diagrams follow this principle. Oh okay I didn't know that.  Thanks for clearing things up though! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2009 23:04:33 GMT
Whitechapel now has a double arrow symbol - I thought the LO Design Manual said stations on the 'core' ELL would not carry these as they're not part of the NR network, so maybe it's for Crossrail? You remember correctly. At some point since the original LO design standard were issued TfL has changed their mind - I guess that although the stations aren't part of the Network Rail network in the legal sense, they are going to be operated as part of the National Rail network from the passengers' point of view so should show the double arrow symbol. Perhaps now they would like to send someone around to put back all the National Rail double arrow symbols that were removed from Victoria line diagrams - only Blackhorse Road could have possibly justifiably had the symbols covered based on the original policy, but Highbury and Euston(!) also lost the symbol on some diagrams... |
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Post by 21146 on Nov 12, 2009 12:14:07 GMT
Whitechapel now has a double arrow symbol - I thought the LO Design Manual said stations on the 'core' ELL would not carry these as they're not part of the NR network, so maybe it's for Crossrail? You remember correctly. At some point since the original LO design standard were issued TfL has changed their mind - I guess that although the stations aren't part of the Network Rail network in the legal sense, they are going to be operated as part of the National Rail network from the passengers' point of view so should show the double arrow symbol. Perhaps now they would like to send someone around to put back all the National Rail double arrow symbols that were removed from Victoria line diagrams - only Blackhorse Road could have possibly justifiably had the symbols covered based on the original policy, but Highbury and Euston(!) also lost the symbol on some diagrams... Hmm so say, Hoxton station, will be able to sell me a ticket from Newquay to Fort William? (For £1000+) It better be able too if it's got the NR double-arrow outside! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2009 18:36:20 GMT
Hmm so say, Hoxton station, will be able to sell me a ticket from Newquay to Fort William? (For £1000+) It better be able too if it's got the NR double-arrow outside! Funnily enough, I raised this a few months ago in an Overground thread - wondering what ticket issuing system will TfL install in the old ELL offices. I don't seem to have an answer on that or a Google search. Logically I would expect them to use the same TIS that Silverlink used, given that it will already be a legacy system that TfL has to provide back office support for. However, thinking about it again there's no requirement for a station served by National Rail services to actually sell the full range of NR tickets. Obviously some are unstaffed and don't sell tickets, but some are managed by LU and can only sell the limited range available on UTS. What the NR National Conditions of Carriage do say is along the lines that if you are unable to purchase the ticket you require at the outset of your journey then you have to buy a ticket for part of the journey. When, in the course of your journey, you are able to get the ticket you originally wanted the full value of the ticket you hold will be credited against it so that you don't pay any more than necessary. Sorry, I've gone way off topic here! Back on topic, I'm wondering if the removed diagrams and signs are being kept somewhere for safe-keeping 'just in case'? Or if they've ended up in a skip... |
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Post by djlynch on Nov 13, 2009 0:54:19 GMT
Sorry, I've gone way off topic here! Back on topic, I'm wondering if the removed diagrams and signs are being kept somewhere for safe-keeping 'just in case'? Or if they've ended up in a skip... But that would mean admitting there is some possibility the Spiral Line (as I've started calling it) isn't going to solve all of LUL's problems with Zone 1 SSL! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2009 6:39:44 GMT
Sorry, I've gone way off topic here! Back on topic, I'm wondering if the removed diagrams and signs are being kept somewhere for safe-keeping 'just in case'? Or if they've ended up in a skip... But that would mean admitting there is some possibility the Spiral Line (as I've started calling it) isn't going to solve all of LUL's problems with Zone 1 SSL! If they don't save them, it shows they can't even think through what will work on a already-overloaded network |
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Post by 21146 on Nov 13, 2009 12:01:16 GMT
So we know that the I/R line diagrams have been permanently altered at all stations between Liverpool Street and Edgware Road (Met), excepting Moorgate. Does anyone know of any other stations that have had changes, e.g. along the 'south' side of the Circle? (Though I'm not sure the latter will need replacing due to their layout, but on what is really the 'west' side, High St Ken to Paddington, they should be changed on the O/R to reflect the fact that all trains will terminate at Edgware Road.) Also many District Line diagrams will need to show 'Circle' interchange at Hammersmith, no doubt by stickers which will last 5 minutes. Presumably car diagrams will need to be changed too, no sign of that having started yet, and will C Stock be re-blinded in any way I wonder? [I've since heard this will happen soon]. In theory 'Circle Line' will no longer be seen on the front of W/B-I/R trains on the north side come December, though I won't hold my breath for that.
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Post by londonstuff on Nov 13, 2009 21:10:49 GMT
The one at St James's Park today looked as if it'd been modified - I'll take a photo if I go past tomorrow.
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Post by 21146 on Nov 16, 2009 16:19:21 GMT
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Post by d7666 on Nov 16, 2009 19:13:33 GMT
I dreamt up helix instead of sprial ... yes I know spiral is more technically correct, but if you use helix phonetically but mis-spell it heliks you get the Heliks Line H Hammersmith E Edgware Road LI Liverpool Street KS Kensington(s)  As Baker Street to Wood Lane / ShepBushMark is my travel 3-4 times a week, I can't wait for the new service. Even tried to get in on some of the necessary engineering upgrade work over the weekend of the change ..... -- Nick |
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Post by 21146 on Nov 17, 2009 19:48:48 GMT
The whole "Extended Circle" concept is treating the symptoms (late running and extended intervals) as opposed to the causes (flat junctions, signal failures, knock-ons from other lines) and effectively regards the passenger as an operational inconvenience. It's like when BR dealt with persistantly late trains by simply extending the journey times, thus avoiding having to pay out refunds to season ticket holders. I find it incredible that fixed signage is being replaced to reflect a pattern of service that has never been trialed in the peak, or even on a weekday. Even if LU were 99% convinced of its success, surely temporary stickers (which sufficed to reflect the renaming of Shepherds Bush(H&C) and addition of Wood Lane) would be more prudent? Then at least a considerable amount of money could have been saved just in case everything doesn't go to plan. I guess the new enamel line diagrams are to show that the new service's success is "non-negotiable".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2009 21:33:23 GMT
It may well be "non-negotiable" until Boris or some other London politician says it isn't. It's noticeable that none of them have said a word in favour of it.
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Post by westinghouse101 on Nov 17, 2009 22:36:33 GMT
i think that this new circle will not work full stop. its gunna be an accident waiting to happen
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Post by Chris M on Nov 17, 2009 23:04:04 GMT
i think that this new circle will not work full stop. its gunna be an accident waiting to happen The only thing I'm not sure about is whether the first serious incident due to overcrowding will happen at Edgware Road or Paddington H&C. |
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Post by citysig on Nov 17, 2009 23:30:50 GMT
There are now less than 4 weeks before the new timetable starts.
I know we all have our concerns, and some of them are very justified indeed. The thing I am sure we could all agree on is that each and every concern has been aired more than once on here. It has been a good while since anything actually new was brought to the debate. This thread is now doing what the Circle won't do from 13th December - that is go round and round in Circles!
The timetable is going to happen. How long it lasts is something we can only speculate on at present - although I personally think that despite what we all feel, we should at least enter into the new era in a more positive mood, and just see how it goes. It may have to be withdrawn early in the new year. It may be with us for years to come, who knows?
We are on page 14 of a thread which is only added to when someone says "It's not going to work" or, recently when the signage is updated.
The signage will continue to be updated. Obviously some of the "more permanent" new signs are a little concerning when you think of their potential cost - but this is only if you set out in full-on negative mood, and can definately state that they will need to be ripped down very soon in to the timetable. Nobody can actually say that.
So what I'm getting at here - as someone who will be having to get very involved with the new timetable - is maybe let this thread rest a few weeks. I am sure that once the timetable is in, there will be more than enough to write about that is new.
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Post by mrfs42 on Nov 18, 2009 0:11:14 GMT
We are on page 14 of a thread which is only added to when someone says "It's not going to work" or, recently when the signage is updated. Is the run time constant throughout the weekday service Tower Hill - Aldgate East; and likewise for Tower Hill - Mansion House? |
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Post by metman on Nov 18, 2009 0:49:01 GMT
One question I asked pages ago is are there enough C stock trains to run the service? I am looking at the lack of reversers at Whitechapel as well!
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Post by Dstock7080 on Nov 18, 2009 6:40:51 GMT
Sounds like the C Stock DVAs are being changed, certainly 5705 is now like a '95 Stock on H&C !
EB at ERd is now says "change for the Circle and District Lines via High Street Kensington".
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Post by Phil on Nov 18, 2009 17:46:26 GMT
I am sure that once the timetable is in, there will be more than enough to write about that is new. Once this happens, we'll probably start a new thread (if you don't first  ;D ;D) and this one can die the death. As you say, this one's more-or-less had its time. |
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Post by 21146 on Nov 18, 2009 17:50:59 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2009 18:18:30 GMT
I can accept that no one can add much to the "will work/won't work" debate until the new WTT starts. However it is interesting to know where signage is being replaced as the amount of 1950s/1960s and even early 1970s enamel line diagrams left on LU are rapidly diminishing, and I can think of several which are likely to go because of this:- www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/2771655223/www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/3087385940/I understand C Stock blinds are being replaced and would like to know how exactly the new display(s) will be laid out. Indeed will a plain "Circle Line" panel be retained in case it all goes tits up in 2010? OT. 21146, I had a look through your Flickr page yesterday and spent a couple of hours looking at your photos, I actually originally only planned a quick look Many really are quite fasinating, a good collection, well done. |
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