Plaistow junction

[plasmid]

I've been using the District line for over two years now and I've always felt that the crossover track where the Hammersmith & City line terminates is a bit dodgy going from West Ham to Plaistow. Especially if your on a District line train as they seem to wobble more compared to the Hammersmith & City line trains.

Surely they will replace this before the arrival of the S stock?

I've also noticed the track replacement work done at East Ham to Upton Park on the Westbound line and from East Ham half way to Upton Park on the Eastbound line. This seems odd as the track always felt pretty smooth beforehand which leads me back to my original question.

Shouldn't they be concentrating on replacing those junctions as a priority before replacing the track?

[Dstock7080]

The West Ham to Plaistow area will be dealt with soon because of the impending installation of the centre siding at West Ham.
This will mean the slewing of the current EB track to the far left hand of the Greenway span and the new siding entrance/exit to the right of it.

[citysig]

Aug 7, 2009 21:01:25 GMT plasmid said:

I've been using the District line for over two years now and I've always felt that the crossover track where the Hammersmith & City line terminates is a bit dodgy going from West Ham to Plaistow. Especially if your on a District line train as they seem to wobble more compared to the Hammersmith & City line trains.

Try a Met at full pelt going through Neasden. Then you will appreciate how "wobbly" things can be ;D ;D

Pointwork - especially that which hasn't been renewed in recent years - will always feel a bit more "characteristic" than the newer stuff. That's not to say it is actually "dodgy." Some of the newer kit actually has extra bits and pieces to ensure the ride is slightly smoother than on the old kit.

As mentioned elsewhere in the depths of this place, even if a section of track appears to be quite smooth and still gets replaced, in the large-scale scheme of things, it may be that, good as the track is, it is simply life-expired and due for replacement.

[mrfs42]

As a PW engineer said to me years ago: 'Doesn't matter if it looks good; I bet it still has chair gall!' ;D

[railtechnician]

I doubt there is much smooth track on LUL anywhere. Some of the very long shots used for the Quiz images illustrate extremely well how the track is anything but straight, smooth or level even on the straightest, smoothest and most level sections. Of course some places are worse than others, Acton eastbound and westbound fast were notorious for requiring regular lifting and packing of points and replacement of trainstops due to wet beds when I used to do maintenance there.

Perhaps some of the best ride is from Hounslow West to Heathrow and on the hot & cold through Barbican and Moorgate because the track is cushioned. I don't know but I expect the JLE has something similar.

Yes I can recall the bounce of a Met running through Neasden, I always thought the A60 stock could do with dampers in the seating, more than once I was bounced off a seat in one.

[Dstock7080]

Looking closer with, now ex-District colleague, Seth at the plans for the new pointwork at Plaistow/West Ham siding we had overlooked something quiet detrimental to the future good running of this layout.

We know that there will be a centre siding at West Ham, connected at each end to the east/west bound tracks- granted.

What has so far failed to be mentioned is that when the work is finished the WB exit from the retained Plaistow bay and platform 2 will ONLY be into the new siding!

This must now mean the siding will have to be colour-light rather than shunt-signal as previously envisaged?

This will certainly avoid the current clash of an ex-bay (or pfm2) train blocking both the EB & WB while it negotiates the pointwork but will surely delay EB trains more as it snakes out of the bay-road into the new siding?
Then, once it's in the siding it will have to wait for a clear road WB!

If a defective, or otherwise, train were to be stabled in the new centre siding this would now prevent the use of Plaistow as an east-west reversing point!

[Deleted]

Nov 2, 2009 18:36:05 GMT Dstock7080 said:

This must now mean the siding will have to be colour-light rather than shunt-signal as previously envisaged?

The Central already has the loop/turnback facility at Newbury Park and Debden and is signalled for passenger movements with timetabled rusty rail moves through in service.

[Tom]

Nov 2, 2009 18:36:05 GMT Dstock7080 said:

Looking closer with, now ex-District colleague, Seth at the plans for the new pointwork at Plaistow/West Ham siding we had overlooked something quiet detrimental to the future good running of this layout.

We know that there will be a centre siding at West Ham, connected at each end to the east/west bound tracks- granted.

What has so far failed to be mentioned is that when the work is finished the WB exit from the retained Plaistow bay and platform 2 will ONLY be into the new siding!

This must now mean the siding will have to be colour-light rather than shunt-signal as previously envisaged?

I was involved with the drawing of part of the scheme plan, and it was always planned to be colour-light signalled.

The last scheme plan I saw had No.7 crossover at Plaistow retained, with the access to the Siding being from both roads west of the Northern Outfall Sewer; hence allowing reversing at both Plaistow and West Ham.

I'm not sure you've seen what the designers are working to - though I will check.

[Dstock7080]

This is the plan we were looking at:

tinyurl.com/yhu4zqk

Perhaps this has been superseded?

[plasmid]

So the junction finally got new track as of last weekend I'm guessing?

Feels very comfy with the H&C trains. It's an improvement for the District trains too but it still feels funny, probably because the D stock is made of cheese, the shocks are made of cheese and perhaps that's why it wobbles more than the C stock.

[Dstock7080]

Mar 3, 2010 12:58:35 GMT plasmid said:

So the junction finally got new track as of last weekend I'm guessing?

Feels very comfy with the H&C trains. It's an improvement for the District trains too but it still feels funny, probably because the D stock is made of cheese, the shocks are made of cheese and perhaps that's why it wobbles more than the C stock.

It wasn't actually the points that were done, just the EB road from West Ham to just short of them. It did however remove a slight kink that has made things feel smoother!

[Deleted]

Are there any photos of the new tracks?

[plasmid]

nice, well it seems to feel more solid over the whole section.

[Colin]

Mar 4, 2010 2:50:39 GMT @theonekea said:

Are there any photos of the new tracks?

Seeing as it's you that's asking....

I meant to take a snap before we departed, but you'll have to make do with this one - as you can tell by the car count up markers (blue plate with a 3 on it ), we've just departed West Ham and have just gone onto the newly laid track (see the change from Bullhead rail on wooden sleepers to flat bottom rail on concrete sleepers?). To the right you can see the area that's currently being cleared for the new centre siding:


And here (well, a little in the distance) are the points approaching Plaistow, where the newly laid track finishes - this is now the normal sort of distance being covered in a single weekend possession by the track renewal boys; quite something compared to a couple of years ago when you'd be lucky to see a platform length done over an entire weekend:

[londonstuff]

Off topic, but based on what Colin said above, obviously old track has to be ripped out and new sleepers and rails put in their place. Are these essentially the same size so the people doing it can just slot it into the space that is now vacant?

How do they get the new rails shaped in the same way, i.e. bending in the right places? Is this done beforehand using measurements of the rails, or is it done on-site?

[Deleted]

Is there any date in the diary for the reversing siding installation work between West Ham and Plaistow to be done?

[Colin]

In the absence of any replies, all I'll say is that it will be installed & connected up gradually over several weekend closures.

This is necessary given that there'll be 4 lot's of double ended points going in (trains will be able to reverse east to west or west to east from either West Ham or Plaistow), and pretty much all the signalling in the area is currently fully automatic; that all needs to be changed to semi automatic (controlled by a signaller to the lay man) with changes as appropriate to maintain the correct overlaps, etc. Then there's the traction current arrangements, changes within Barking signal cabin, etc, etc.

IIRC there's a vague "by the end of the year" date to have the whole thing installed & operational at present.

Perhaps someone more in the know will come along and correct me if I'm wrong.....

[Tom]

The date I'm aware of is Christmas.

[Deleted]

Will the existing IMR be relocked to support the new layout, or will it be replaced with a new SER controlled from a new station in Barking cabin?

Considering the info so far regarding the retention of the frame in Whitechapel cabin after the reduction in platforms, I wouldn't be surprised if something similar were considered here.

[Tom]

Plaistow IMR will lose one route (FC8 - shunt from WB to EB or Bay), as any W-E reversing will now be done via the siding.

The IMR is not being extended to accomodate the additional routes; a new SER for the West Ham bit is to be provided adjacent to the existing IMR, with slotting between the two. I believe the SER is now under construction; there was talk of me and a few others going to Westinghouse to factory acceptance test it...

[Deleted]

I know it's WIP but any sight of a signalling plan that could be shared here

[railtechnician]

Mar 5, 2010 21:12:39 GMT londonstuff said:

Off topic, but based on what Colin said above, obviously old track has to be ripped out and new sleepers and rails put in their place. Are these essentially the same size so the people doing it can just slot it into the space that is now vacant?

How do they get the new rails shaped in the same way, i.e. bending in the right places? Is this done beforehand using measurements of the rails, or is it done on-site?

That all depends really but on a large scale track renewal 'panels' are sometimes laid, a panel being a preformed length of ready assembled track i.e. sleepers, chairs and rails already bolted together and crane off flat cars into position once the old track and ballast has been lifted and the trackbed newly prepared.

Of course for a smoother ride long welded rails are laid after the new sleepers have been laid. Note that all plain track is straight, laying it allows it to curve into position as the rails are barred into the chairs.

Points and crossings are another matter entirely where complete layouts are often presassembled to the correct dimensions, disassembled and then reassembled. Points and crossings may all look different but they are all laid to standard geometry in differing turnout lengths and crossing angles.
During the preassembly the stock and switch rails are crowed as required to obtain the turnout radii and to take the spring out of the switches. If the preassembly is well done on site crowing may be avoided altogether during laying and most of the work is then up to signals to install the point mechanism, stretchers etc and do all the bonding.

For short lengths of rerailing rails are usually cut on site. Generally the old rail will be lifted, the new dropped into the chairs as far as possible and cut to fit. There is skill involved in measuring, cutting and fitting as some allowance has to be made for expansion and contraction depending when the job is done. On a cold winter's night for example undoing a fishplate and removing the bolts can result in a gap of several inches opening between the two rail ends so pulling back machines are used to stress and de-stress rails out of and into position. If the P Way supervisor gets it wrong rails can buckle in the heat or fracture in the cold, in extreme temperatures this is liable to occur at times in any case.

Generally speaking proper track replacement will involve lifting everything down to the trackbed, making good and reballasting. When changing stocks and switches or crossings and relaying a few rails the track may be repacked with compressed aggregate where the bed has become sodden etc to level the track, take the bounce out of particular spots, prevent extreme rail wear and give a slightly smoother ride. This is normally done by hand using pneumatic compactors to pack the aggregate beneath the sleepers.

[plasmid]

How are they coming along with the new siding that they are installing currently just beyond West Ham? I've only looked once but the best I could see was some parts of the track had been installed and a new signal post has sprung up at the end of the Eastbound platform.

[21146]

Scene/seen today:

www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4756239736/

www.flickr.com/photos/24772733@N05/4756248808/