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Post by londonboy on Sept 11, 2009 15:46:09 GMT
Just had the new tube maps delivered to my station.
The zones have gone and it now shows Shoreditch High St to New Cross / Gate as under construction
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gantshill
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Post by gantshill on Sept 11, 2009 17:14:09 GMT
I picked one up from Perivale this evening.
Other items to note:
on the map it is now "Kings Cross St. Pancras International"
the BR symbol is in blue, and
global warming has hit London: the River Thames has dried up completely, and no longer appears on the map.
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Post by citysig on Sept 11, 2009 18:17:43 GMT
But I thought all these clever people said that global warming would see half the country underwater? Does the map have a delicate shade of all-over blue, to signify that the Thames as such no longer exists as a river through the centre, but the network itself is actually now beneath the Thames ;D ;D Cue the fantasists and their ideas of how a sub-Thames system will work  ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2009 18:53:11 GMT
But I thought all these clever people said that global warming would see half the country underwater? No, first it will be absorbed into the clouds, and then in a year or 20 everything will rain and make a giant flood all over the world (exept for if you live more than 500 meters over the ocean). Editing reason: typo  |
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Post by jakehn54 on Sept 11, 2009 20:37:37 GMT
Can you view it online yet?
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Post by citysig on Sept 12, 2009 1:21:52 GMT
Can you view it online yet? I've tried, but Google Earth reckons there's still definately land to be seen ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 5:57:57 GMT
I noticed this map whilst waiting to get the signal at Dag East this morning. It shows Edgware Road as one station with a direct interchange between the Sub surface lines and the Bakerloo  |
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Post by 21146 on Sept 12, 2009 12:14:33 GMT
It's good that a lot of the 'clutter' has gone but I think removing the River Thames is going too far. It you're not familiar with London it's useful to know this barrier could be in the way if wanting to travel overland on foot between unconnected lines.
However it's nonsense to suggest the the two "Edgware Roads" are a convenient single interchange point, presumably ready to con people following the changes to the Circle Line service later this year. Passengers will find out the hard way it isn't!
Nor is any indication given that, say, Cannon Street closes early and all-day Sundays, whilst Bank/Monument seemingly once more has full transfer facilities between all lines, which it clearly hasn't.
In the same vein all the tiny "100 m to xxx" notes have disappeared.
It's a pity the awful wheelchair "blobs" weren't eliminated too, though ironically the one that should be at Edgware has been omitted.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Sept 12, 2009 17:42:35 GMT
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Post by londonstuff on Sept 12, 2009 18:30:54 GMT
Gosh, that really *is* different, especially at the north-western end of the Met and past Leytonstone on the Central is much straighter, as is the DLR towards Lewisham. I don't especially like it and thing removing the zones and the Thames is not a great idea. I'd think it'd be better to get rid of other information, such as Overground lines, first as this has made parts of the actual tube map too complex and actually smaller, e.g. north end of the Bakerloo, Northern and Jubilee as the terminal stations now finish three-quarters of the way up the page so there's room to fit up as far as Watford Junction in.
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Post by max on Sept 12, 2009 18:47:18 GMT
Mmmmm, freaky!
It certainly looks cleaner than the last version, but not difficult!
I've never been able to decide whether the River is a useful orientating device or benign clutter, I guess we are about to find out. Certainly, New Yorkers get very upset if Central Park disappears from their subway map. Deleting the River but leaving on the River boat interchanges seems a bit odd.
Having removed the zones from the map, I might not have deleted the zone information from the key. This has been done to make the text larger, but sponsorship is clearly more important than usability.
Still a few careless mistakes with warning daggers, and now some glaring inconsistencies with interchanges.
And for pedants, the ELL has not entirely gone, the decoration on the front still features ELL puce rather than LO orange.
Overall, classic case of what happens when people know that they need to improve usability of the map, but don't understand how to go about it.
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Post by thirstquensher on Sept 12, 2009 19:02:24 GMT
When I saw one of these for the first time at Canning Town station, I had to do a double-take. First reaction was, "Wow! Someone's removed all the recent maps from the frame and left a 1980s one!" Then I noticed the blue stripe and the branding (and the LO keying) (and of course the footnote eventually) and realised it must be the new one.
It was a glorious revelation. I immediately wondered if Max knew about this one coming and if he had someone at TfL's knuckles in a vice a few weeks ago to get this to happen.
It did look a bit empty, and I didn't realise why - only when reading this board do I realise it was because the river wasn't there - I didn't manage to stand looking at it for very long before being swept up by the incoming and outgoing crowds, so I couldn't really study it. But it did feel like a breath of fresh air, and I felt like jumping for joy.
However, do you realise that this is the most empty Tube Map that's ever existed? They've even got rid of the gridlines which have featured in the maps since the 50s, and there's the river of course which was featured on the very earliest Beck drafts and has never been removed before. I really do think they will reinstate that - I think they overshot the runway just a little bit there.
As to the 'what is an interchange' issue, I don't personally see why it should be a problem to show Edgware Road as one big interchange. It's a set of multiple tube lines all of which run to nearby places at stations called Edgware Road. It could be argued that trying to show geographical distinction between the 'close interchanges' and 'a short walk down the road interchanges' is as irrelevant on a diagrammatic map as overall geography is. You many not, for instance, have to exit onto the street to change lines at Green Park or Oxford Circus, but it can still be a heck of a walk if you have luggage, health problems or time constraints. And if you have none of those, it can be argued it's not an issue whether you have to exit onto the street or not.
So, "hurrah for simplicity" is my view on it. Just bring the river back, that's all.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 19:16:52 GMT
Having looked through some archive maps, I think this current map has close parallels with one from 1949. This showed the river in barely visible blue.
Interchange issues. Edgware Road. Not the easiest 'interchange' to undertake but probably no more complicated than Green Park Vic to Pic.
North London Line inclusion. I vote it should stay, along with the Gospel Oak to Barking Line. They are useful diversionary options should an incident occur. They are also useful 'feeder' routes into the tube system. While this may open the proverbial can of worms a la 'my route is a useful one so put that on the map', I think at least the river should be put back. Zones should be kept too.
Thats just my ha'penneth worth.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 19:20:40 GMT
Again, I saw the new map at Canning Town.
1) I do think that it will be found that the removal of the river has actually created more problems than it has solved, particularly as the boat interchanges have been left in.
2) Given that the East London line replacement bus service is so thin, almost non existent in places, should it not be removed, or at least shown with a footnote of it being closed until 2010 and to "please use alternative routes"?
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Post by Alight on Sept 12, 2009 19:27:38 GMT
Has the dagger symbol been removed from Waterloo yet? I think everyone has got the message now that no international services run from it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 19:46:41 GMT
Interchange issues. Edgware Road. Not the easiest 'interchange' to undertake but probably no more complicated than Green Park Vic to Pic. There is a vast difference between changing lines at Green Park and changing stations at Edgware Road Green Park is a fairly long walk through a subway in the same station, whereas edgware Road is exiting one station walking down the road and then through a graffiti ridden subway under the westway and then entering another station. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 19:49:17 GMT
Acton Town also looks a mess, it looks like you interchange from the Uxbridge branch of the Picc to a combined Heathrow, Ealing service. It would have been better to put the Picc under one blob and the District under the other.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 20:26:59 GMT
Has the dagger symbol been removed from Waterloo yet? I think everyone has got the message now that no international services run from it. I thought that was to reference the W&C evening closures? |
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Post by memorex on Sept 12, 2009 20:28:33 GMT
I honestly don't know how tourists are going to comprehend the fare structure without zones on the map.
Considering visitor oyster cards are only PAY-G, perhaps they are hoping tourists will now visit anywhere without considering the fare difference between stations, therefore bringing in more money.
Nonetheless, why have a ticketing system that charges through a zonal structure, then take away the map showing what zones covers what area?
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Post by londonstuff on Sept 12, 2009 20:57:27 GMT
Surely if people buy the wrong ticket and get caught by a ticketing officer, there's a legitimate reason to say they didn't know they were out of zone?
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Post by thirstquensher on Sept 12, 2009 21:02:16 GMT
I believe having zones on the Tube Map was a bad idea and I'm glad they got rid of it. However they do need to publicise the zones somehow, and *before* you get on the train. So why don't they simply indicate the zones on the VE panel line diagrams on platforms and before the ticket barriers (or visible from the gateline) in the same manner as on the in-car diagrams (but vertically instead of horizontally)?
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Post by Tom on Sept 12, 2009 21:27:40 GMT
Acton Town also looks a mess, it looks like you interchange from the Uxbridge branch of the Picc to a combined Heathrow, Ealing service. It would have been better to put the Picc under one blob and the District under the other. As does Earl's Court, Edgware Road and Paddington. I personally think that both Edgware Road (Bakerloo/Circle) and Paddington (H&C/Bakerloo, Circle) should have been shown as two separate stations, which they are. The have individual ticket offices and you cannot interchange without leaving one station and entering the other, which surely must cause PAYG users to be charged twice? Whilst it's very nice to have Watford Junction on the map again, I do feel that the addition of LO services has added clutter - quite ironic when the Thames has been removed to reduce clutter. The map should either be a map of London Underground Services, or one of Rail Services in the London area (i.e. a London Connections map). This one is aiming to be a map of TfL sponsored rail services, not what it is titled! Furthermore, since when did King's Cross St. Pancras get renamed to 'King's Cross St. Pancras International' and why haven't the signs been updated to suit? All in all, not a development of Beck's 1933 (why not 1931?) map, rather a desecration of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2009 21:38:47 GMT
I believe having zones on the Tube Map was a bad idea and I'm glad they got rid of it. However they do need to publicise the zones somehow, and *before* you get on the train. So why don't they simply indicate the zones on the VE panel line diagrams on platforms and before the ticket barriers (or visible from the gateline) in the same manner as on the in-car diagrams (but vertically instead of horizontally)? "This station is Alperton, this is the last station in zone 4 on this Piccadilly line train, to Arnos Grove. Please mind the doors"? Would be kinda stupid at Buckhurst Hill (only z5 on east end of Central) |
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Post by Phil on Sept 12, 2009 22:18:27 GMT
As does Earl's Court, Edgware Road and Paddington. I personally think that both Edgware Road (Bakerloo/Circle) and Paddington (H&C/Bakerloo, Circle) should have been shown as two separate stations, which they are. The have individual ticket offices and you cannot interchange without leaving one station and entering the other, which surely must cause PAYG users to be charged twice? The Paddington situation is even worse. I top up my PAYG at Paddington: my most recent one told me I could use Circle/District or Bakerloo gates but NOT H&C. So far fair enough (if annoying) but once the t-cup comes in it will be a major inconvenience because ANY eastbound journey will need to be done from the H&C platforms for anyone with any common-sense. I just hope they change it before the t-cup comes in, otherwise even more confusion will arise. |
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Post by Chris M on Sept 12, 2009 22:23:33 GMT
I really don't like the lack of a river, it is the single geographical feature that does more to define London (above and below) than everything else.
I mildly dislike the Edgware Road layout, but am ambivilant about the Paddington change, although I take on board Tom's comments, the H&C station is now not separated from suburban platforms by a gateline (but the combined H&C+Suburban are separated from the mainline area of the station).
The loss of the walking interchanges is a retrograde step as well imo, and there is now no consistency about how interchanges are shown. Compare Canary Wharf and West Hampstead with Shepherds Bush and Kensington Olympia. Waterloo looks like three separate stations whereas the three separate West Hampstead stations are shown as one. Embankment is a far easier interchange between Bakerloo and Northern than Charing Cross, but the map would suggest you change at the latter. Oxford Circus interchanges involving the Central Line require far more walking than Picc-Vic connections at Highbury and Islington, which is again contrary to what the map suggests.
The lack of zones has allowed the straightening of some lines but not all opportunities have been taken, e.g the NLL around Leytonstone High Road. I'm with Artery on the inclusion of the Overground - it is being marketed as an integrated system and increasingly it is. The title of the diagram should change to reflect its contents, rather than the contents being dictated by the title.
Far better at reducing clutter would be to remove the wheelchair blobs (which remove the distinction between standard stations and interchange stations) and replace them with an adjacent symbol à la the National Rail logos.
Zones are a very useful feature, and the lack of gridlines will make locating your station harder - score minus several points for usability.
Overall, I applaud the boldness and willingness to depart from what has been traditional, but the resuling map is one of the worst I've seen. 2/10 (and that's probably a bit generous).
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Post by ruislip on Sept 12, 2009 23:22:30 GMT
Didn't some maps in the 50s and 60s show Edgware Rd as having interchange between the Bakerloo and the SSLs?
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Post by 21146 on Sept 12, 2009 23:37:50 GMT
Again, I saw the new map at Canning Town. 1) I do think that it will be found that the removal of the river has actually created more problems than it has solved, particularly as the boat interchanges have been left in. 2) Given that the East London line replacement bus service is so thin, almost non existent in places, should it not be removed, or at least shown with a footnote of it being closed until 2010 and to "please use alternative routes"? The ELL buses have gone (withdrawn end of month), the map just shows the hatched 'core' ELL "under construction" for LO. (Why not the new-build Shoreditch - Dalston section which is just as relevant?) Also gone are the 'airport' train service plane symbols. |
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Post by 21146 on Sept 12, 2009 23:39:17 GMT
Interchange issues. Edgware Road. Not the easiest 'interchange' to undertake but probably no more complicated than Green Park Vic to Pic. There is a vast difference between changing lines at Green Park and changing stations at Edgware Road Green Park is a fairly long walk through a subway in the same station, whereas edgware Road is exiting one station walking down the road and then through a graffiti ridden subway under the westway and then entering another station. That is my view. Unsafe and not to be encouraged. |
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Post by 21146 on Sept 12, 2009 23:41:38 GMT
LU is asking staff to comment on the new design via the intranet.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2009 0:30:31 GMT
I hate it. Its just looks lost and empty. Although Ive only see it from a train so far. seem busy Northern Line stations don't care it yet grrrrrr.
As for taking away the river, that was left there for a reason TfL. But maybe TfL have taken the CSLR view that as they don't really see the river they don't need it on the map just like trains don't need windows.
If your going to take away the zones at least keep the grid on it, if nothing else trying to find a station will be harder with no refernce.
Then again I think this entire map is a mess from the fact they put up adverts a month before it came out telling people to pick up the next Tube map. Stupid stupid stupid!
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;D
