The Circle after a few months

[Deleted]

From a passengers point of view I find the new teacup alot more reliable than the old service, if I remember rightly the last time I used to old circle it got suspended a few minutes after I boarded the train!
Haven't had any problems using the new one though.
and when ever I use it theres always a district waiting on the opposite side of the platform at edgware road so changing trains is not a problem at all.

[Phil]

May 4, 2010 19:19:49 GMT @delboy200 said:

and when ever I use it theres always a district waiting on the opposite side of the platform at edgware road so changing trains is not a problem at all.

Totally accepted, but you're not a mum with a pushchair and two other screaming kids, or a Japanese tourist with virtually no English and a large suitcase.

SPEED of journey - probably much better. But convenience??

[Deleted]

Come on metcontrol/linecontroller66... We are not children. I know what my rostered hours are and what the framework agreement says. The fact is, we had got used to being reformed cancelled a lot and now we are spending more of our duty time driving than we previously were.

It is totally understandable that LT want to maximise the productivity of their drivers - what firm wouldnt? The fact is though, we are working harder now. What sane human being wouldnt want the easier life? They are getting more for their money - fair play to them. We are doing more for our money. I know it's legal and within the agreements. I was just saying they've got us working harder and most of us preferred it before. And yes, I would rather do 3 straight Circles than get shoved from pillar to post as I am now with a train full of confused punters who certainly aint banging on the door of Allsop Place to complain about it.

[Deleted]

That's the problem, you have got used to not doing your rostered driving hours due to being reformed and getting out of a trip here and there. This timetable has now put an end to the reforms every couple of trips and T/Ops on the C&H are now having to do what they are paid to do. That's life I'm afraid. Been there and done it, but it beats working on a building site or doing any other heavy labour for 15 grand a year, out in all weathers and very few agreements in the employees favour, I know what I'd be happy with.
As for people not knowing where they are going, I totally agree. the signage and announcements make no sense to anyone with half a brain. "All Circle line trains go to Hammersmith" The comedian who thought that one up will probably get some reward for that. Personally, I would have taken away the Circle line name and called it something else. In what other system can you go on a "Circle line" but come to a terminus? I think the senior management should review the announcements and signage to stop the confusion for both staff and punters!

[Deleted]

May 5, 2010 10:13:39 GMT @linecontroller66 said:

In what other system can you go on a "Circle line" but come to a terminus?

Well, in the Oslo metro system you can ;D

[Deleted]

May 5, 2010 10:43:01 GMT @eirikho said:

May 5, 2010 10:13:39 GMT @linecontroller66 said:

In what other system can you go on a "Circle line" but come to a terminus?

Well, in the Oslo metro system you can ;D

I stand corrected. They are obviously as barmy as us then ;D ;D

[norbitonflyer]

Their's doesn't actually terminate on the loop though - although Line 5 does. What they've done is to combine two services (lines 4 and 6) It's analogous to having a train doing Hammermsith - Edgware Rd - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road - Whitechapel.

[citysig]

May 4, 2010 22:13:33 GMT Phil said:

Totally accepted, but you're not a mum with a pushchair and two other screaming kids, or a Japanese tourist with virtually no English and a large suitcase.

SPEED of journey - probably much better. But convenience??

Now, whilst that is also accepted, and can be inconvenient, just imagine if the Circle never existed in the first place. There are countless regular journeys taken by people everyday across London which do not have a direct service / 50% cross-platform interchange.

The argument - with the exception of decent signage / education - that customers are inconvenienced to an unacceptable degree is simply going round in circles (no pun intended). Some of the examples of customers who find it difficult, generally will find the network as a whole quite taxing. Fair enough perhaps we should head in the direction of making it easier for everyone, but at present we do not have the infrastructure to cater for each and every eventuality.

This time last year, taking a typical peak, trains ex-High Street Ken would probably arrive as follows: District > 8 minute gap > District > 2 minute gap > late running Circle > late running Circle which is reversed at Edgware Road due to late running > District > Late-running Circle > District > 8 minute gap > District > Late running Circle > Late running Circle reversed as above. Then of course within the hour, the gaps caused by the 2 trains reversed would arrive.

Now, more often than not it's Edgware Road (Circle) > District > Edgware Road Circle > District and so on, all more or less 5 minutes apart. All more or less connecting into a 5-minute eastbound service.

It's not perfect. There are occasional cancellations leading to 10-minute gaps between High Street Ken and Edgware Road. But surely on balance it is a much improved service.

May 5, 2010 3:40:57 GMT @prakash said:

Come on metcontrol/linecontroller66... We are not children. I know what my rostered hours are and what the framework agreement says. The fact is, we had got used to being reformed cancelled a lot and now we are spending more of our duty time driving than we previously were.

;D You're digging yourself deeper and deeper into that hole. You won't find too many supporters outside our company for the cries of "Now I have to earn my cough cough grand a year by actually driving a train for the majority of my contractual hours."

May 5, 2010 12:05:07 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Their's doesn't actually terminate on the loop though - although Line 5 does. What they've done is to combine two services (lines 4 and 6) It's analogous to having a train doing Hammermsith - Edgware Rd - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road - Whitechapel.

Which is probably one of the options we may have ended up with if Whitechapel wasn't going.

[ruislip]

May 5, 2010 12:05:07 GMT norbitonflyer said:

It's analogous to having a train doing Hammermsith - Edgware Rd - Aldgate - Victoria - Edgware Road - Whitechapel.

Wasn't that done years ago during the Notting Hill Gate carnival and Jubilee Line extension construction?

[Deleted]

May 5, 2010 3:40:57 GMT @prakash said:

Come on metcontrol/linecontroller66... We are not children. I know what my rostered hours are and what the framework agreement says. The fact is, we had got used to being reformed cancelled a lot and now we are spending more of our duty time driving than we previously were.

It is totally understandable that LT want to maximise the productivity of their drivers - what firm wouldnt? The fact is though, we are working harder now. What sane human being wouldnt want the easier life? They are getting more for their money - fair play to them. We are doing more for our money. I know it's legal and within the agreements. I was just saying they've got us working harder and most of us preferred it before.

No you're not children but with statements like that I begin to wonder. You are paid to be efficient just like all of us. Your words are unacceptable to those who actually do what we're paid to do for our contracted hours without whinging, not to mention the paying public (a good proportion of whom I daresay would love to be on your wages) who rely on efficient staff to get them to where they need to go. I, and I'm sure many others, have a lot of respect for train operators in general but the attitude displayed in your post on a public forum is not likely to help maintain that respect now is it?

[Tomcakes]

May 5, 2010 3:40:57 GMT @prakash said:

Come on metcontrol/linecontroller66... We are not children. I know what my rostered hours are and what the framework agreement says. The fact is, we had got used to being reformed cancelled a lot and now we are spending more of our duty time driving than we previously were.

It is totally understandable that LT want to maximise the productivity of their drivers - what firm wouldnt? The fact is though, we are working harder now. What sane human being wouldnt want the easier life? They are getting more for their money - fair play to them. We are doing more for our money. I know it's legal and within the agreements. I was just saying they've got us working harder and most of us preferred it before. And yes, I would rather do 3 straight Circles than get shoved from pillar to post as I am now with a train full of confused punters who certainly aint banging on the door of Allsop Place to complain about it.

With arguments such as "I don't like it now I actually have to work the number of hours that I'm scheduled, agreed and paid to do!!" is it any wonder that the Evening Standard and their fellow papers have such a field day sometimes?!

[Phil]

The above two posts seem to show a certain external "judgment" over a situation where they have no inside knowledge. The tone is somewhat critical and hence unfortunate.

Nobody likes to work harder, but many of us have had the situation forced on us in different jobs, and in some cases it is not only unjustifiable but downright dangerous.
Just one example I've had is bus running times. Some bright spark decided they could save a whole bus (and 3 duties) by reducing turnround and running times on one of our routes. Never having been out there they didn't realize it was a mix of VERY narrow country lanes and a housing estate where cars regularly parked blocking the road. As a result drivers had to choose between breaking the speed limit on other parts of that route or losing part of their (unpaid) meal break. (And before anyone comments, down in the country if you lose part of the break that's tough: no overtime or delayed 2nd half - unless you' re actually so late you're beyond the legal minimum break.) Looked good on paper, but.....would you want to be a passsenger on one of those??
And the same seems to be happening in certain areas of the health service where you are far more likely to see an exhausted doctor whose judgment is BOUND to be affected by tiredness. There's only so far you can go in 'working smarter'.

And, however hard or slack those t/ops on the circle used to work there was presumably a legal framework agreement decided on by manganement and unions: if this has changed significantly without union agreement then there is a legitimate gripe. But OTOH, if there isn't there isn't (if you see what I mean).

I'm not taking sides here because I too do not know the inside story but I think the thread has begun to drift, so if we can get back to the service, rather than those that provide it and control it, that would be good.

Ta.

[Chris M]

May 5, 2010 3:40:57 GMT @prakash said:

And yes, I would rather do 3 straight Circles than get shoved from pillar to post as I am now with a train full of confused punters who certainly aint banging on the door of Allsop Place to complain about it.

While taking note of Phil's post, the above is a key part of Prakash's point (the rest of which I read not as "it's unfair" but as "we accept that it is fair, but this is one reason why we don't like it") that has not really been touched upon.

I haven't used the service through Edgware Road often and not for a while, but every time I have used it, around half the pax appear not to have had a clue what was going on. The station staff and t/ops had to tip out punters who wished to carry on, and frequently some of those who were on the correct train (i.e. wanting to head towards HSK) got out as well thinking they were wrong. Also, in my admittedly very limited experience, both of

• a terminating train arriving in the platform it was supposed to (from the pax perspective of "take a circle line train to be guaranteed cross-platform interchange"), AND
  
• one train arriving ex-Hammersmith to promptly take the load of one train ex-HSK (rather than a wait and one ex-Hammersmith train taking the loads of 2-3 ex-HSK trains)
  

happening has been less common than only one or neither of them happening.

[citysig]

I am probably biased (no, surely not ;D ) but I have been a "passenger" through Edgware Road on 2 days this week - making a journey from King's Cross to West Kensington, which has always been a painful journey in itself, but our company has decided that is the best place for our main training centre.

Anyway. I travelled at 2 separate times during the morning peak and returned at 2 separate times during the mid-afternoon and early part of the evening peak.

Seamless more or less. Good connections. No crowds of people milling around not knowing what was going on. In fact people were moving more or less like they did before the change.

I also over-heard a couple of people talking. One normally used the Central to Notting Hill Gate (not sure where he was from) but now chose to use Edgware Road as he would now get a seat and could relax with his paper. The other commented that he now felt the service was much better as there were the aforementioned seats and whenever he got to Edgware Road there was always a train in a middle platform that he could get on towards Bayswater.

So how many more random journeys should I make in order to see some chaos? Go when the service is delayed? But then, we always have crowds and confusion when there are delays.

[Chris M]

This just goes to show that anecdotes are not a statistically reliable method of judging the effectiveness of something!

FWIW, most of my journeys where there have been issues have been in the early shoulder of the evening peak.

[norbitonflyer]

May 6, 2010 16:44:47 GMT @citysig said:

I have been a "passenger" through Edgware Road on 2 days this week - making a journey from King's Cross to West Kensington, which has always been a painful journey in itself,

surely the Piccadilly Line is faster and easier?

[mrfs42]

Exactly - perhaps MetControl was sampling the passenger experience - very laudable.

[citysig]

Past experience has shown that the Picc Line is longer, once again proving that direct is not always best - and there is still a change at Barons Court. Interesting that on both days, despite the Green railway running 2 thirds of its service towards my destination, all I seemed to see was Wimbledons ;D

Besides, I tend to avoid the tube lines where possible, in particular the Picc Line. I had "an experience" a number of years ago (which I won't detail here - but it wasn't the direct fault of the line itself).

[Colin]

May 7, 2010 7:32:23 GMT @citysig said:

despite the Green railway running 2 thirds of its service towards my destination, all I seemed to see was Wimbledons ;D

How do you arrive at that conclusion then?

Our general service pattern is:

Upminster - Richmond
Upminster - Wimbledon
Tower Hill - Ealing
Edgware Road - Wimbledon

I've deliberately left off the Olympia's as they're not relevant, and I accept the pattern is slightly different in the peaks, but on the whole 50% of westbound trains from Earls Court go to Wimbledon meaning only 50% of the westbound service goes to your destination - some way off your claim of two thirds...

[Deleted]

May 7, 2010 14:08:33 GMT Colin said:

May 7, 2010 7:32:23 GMT @citysig said:

despite the Green railway running 2 thirds of its service towards my destination, all I seemed to see was Wimbledons ;D

How do you arrive at that conclusion then?

Our general service pattern is:

Upminster - Richmond
Upminster - Wimbledon
Tower Hill - Ealing
Edgware Road - Wimbledon

I've deliberately left off the Olympia's as they're not relevant, and I accept the pattern is slightly different in the peaks, but on the whole 50% of westbound trains from Earls Court go to Wimbledon meaning only 50% of the westbound service goes to your destination - some way off your claim of two thirds...

Maybe our colleague took the "real" Circle Line from Edgware Road to Gloucester Road, rather than the District to Earls Court?

The last time I did the Kings Cross to West Kensington the Picc was a nightmare often took the Victoria Line instead. Although luckily this year we were at Oxford Circus and I took the bus from Kings Cross to beat the crush.

[Chris M]

May 7, 2010 7:32:23 GMT @citysig said:

Past experience has shown that the Picc Line is longer, once again proving that direct is not always best

Indeed, for Paddington - Liverpool Street journeys I find changing at Oxford Circus more reliable (certainly prior to the new Circle Line, I've not made the journey often enough since to make a fair judgment).

[citysig]

May 7, 2010 14:08:33 GMT Colin said:

How do you arrive at that conclusion then?

It was a "casual" assumption, not timetable-based (of which I am aware) and was merely "The Green Railway has 3 branches, Wimbledon, Ealing and Richmond, therefore, theoretically, a third of the trains go to each." It was also meant slightly tongue-in-cheek, and never meant to be a "claim" that they should run. And I did say I was being a "passenger" so of course that would be what I would assume.

It will all be different if they let me have a go (which they're going to one day soon ;D )

May 7, 2010 14:52:46 GMT @centralsimon said:

Maybe our colleague took the "real" Circle Line from Edgware Road to Gloucester Road, rather than the District to Earls Court?

I actually used both methods. On one trip I did go via Gloucester Road (after missing the District connection at Edgware Road - due to the late arrival of my NR train into King's Cross).

May 7, 2010 15:07:56 GMT Chris M said:

Indeed, for Paddington - Liverpool Street journeys I find changing at Oxford Circus more reliable (certainly prior to the new Circle Line, I've not made the journey often enough since to make a fair judgment).

I would hope we're beating, if not equalling, that sort of journey now. Maximum 5 minute wait. Paddington-Edgware Road in a couple of minutes. Add another couple for connection. Then 20 minutes Edgware Road-Liverpool Street. Call it 30 minutes? The Bakerloo must be 10 on its own. Would be interesting to find out.

[Colin]

May 7, 2010 17:26:22 GMT @citysig said:

It will all be different if they let me have a go (which they're going to one day soon ;D )

In which case I, and I'm sure many of my colleagues that don't do C stocks, will look forward to communicating with yourself over the train radio.

On the flip side, I was aware that two vacancies had recently become available on the District - one's obviously been filled as there's a new voice this week, and you'll presumably grab the other - which means that when I eventually back into controller training, I'll have about as much chance of getting the District as Gordon Brown has remaining as Prime Minister.

Mind you, we've now been told we may have to wait another 12 months and I've lost interest anyway....

Now then, getting back on topic....

[Deleted]

May 8, 2010 0:47:05 GMT Colin said:

May 7, 2010 17:26:22 GMT @citysig said:

It will all be different if they let me have a go (which they're going to one day soon ;D )

On the flip side, I was aware that two vacancies had recently become available on the District - one's obviously been filled as there's a new voice this week, and you'll presumably grab the other

Unfortunately we're not getting rid of him. Our SCM has asked if anyone wanted to train up for the District, for which my esteemed colleague is one of the volunteers.

[citysig]

May 8, 2010 0:47:05 GMT Colin said:

On the flip side, I was aware that two vacancies had recently become available on the District - one's obviously been filled as there's a new voice this week, and you'll presumably grab the other - which means that when I eventually back into controller training, I'll have about as much chance of getting the District as Gordon Brown has remaining as Prime Minister.

Mind you, we've now been told we may have to wait another 12 months and I've lost interest anyway....

New voices are quite common on all lines - except only one or two become permanent. We get a fair few "not quite readys" through our room, and so do the District. Certainly seems to help put the final pieces in place for most.

As my colleague said, I'm merely adding the line as a "string to my bow." It goes hand in hand with still being qualified in the SCC and also at Edgware Road and Hammersmith signal cabins. I won't get any extra money for it (shame) and I doubt I will work it that regularly. But, apart from the obvious calls of "potential strike breaker" it could also come in handy if someone's relief is delayed en-route and someone wants to go home - people seem to only realise this when it's them who's being taken off. Besides, if my union is on strike then so am I.

Anyway, as you said, back to topic.

[Chris M]

May 7, 2010 15:07:56 GMT Chris M said:

Indeed, for Paddington - Liverpool Street journeys I find changing at Oxford Circus more reliable (certainly prior to the new Circle Line, I've not made the journey often enough since to make a fair judgment).

May 7, 2010 17:26:22 GMT @citysig said:

I would hope we're beating, if not equalling, that sort of journey now. Maximum 5 minute wait. Paddington-Edgware Road in a couple of minutes. Add another couple for connection. Then 20 minutes Edgware Road-Liverpool Street. Call it 30 minutes? The Bakerloo must be 10 on its own. Would be interesting to find out.

Entering a journey for 10:51am on Monday into the journey planner gives journey times via Oxford Circus as 23-25 minutes, so 26-28 minutes including a maximum 3 minutes wait for a Bakerloo Line train at Paddington. The walking time allowed between platforms at Oxford Circus is 4-6 minutes, which is reasonable for a fast walker like me but an OAP wouldn't manage that. Central Line trains are also scheduled 3 minutes apart.

Also for 10:51am on Monday, the journey planner gives:
20 minute journeys (25 with maximum wait time) between the H&C platforms, and 23 minutes (28 with maximum waiting time) departing from the Praed Street platforms.

It also gives 23 minutes travel time (26 with maximum wait) when interchanging between the Bakerloo and SSR at Barker Street, which given the nature of the interchange isn't a route I'd normally consider (and I've not done it enough times to know whether the 4 minutes allowed to get between platforms is reasonable or not).

So, in terms of time there really isn't much to choose between the routes, and assuming equal reliability, which Underground platform is the closest to where you disembark your mainline train could have the greatest impact on your journey's duration!

Do we know yet how long a Paddington-Liverpool Street journey on Crossrail will take?

[Deleted]

Do we know yet how long a Paddington-Liverpool Street journey on Crossrail will take?

About twenty-five years at the current rate of progress.

[flippyff]

May 8, 2010 17:07:22 GMT Chris M said:

Do we know yet how long a Paddington-Liverpool Street journey on Crossrail will take?

No direct times quoted on the crossrail website that I can see but there is this....

"•Heathrow to Liverpool Street 36 minutes

The West End will be 31 minutes from Heathrow and

•19 minutes from Southall
•22 minutes from Woolwich
•20 minutes from Ilford
•31 minutes from Romford"

Heathrow Connect is shown as taking 27 minutes at this time of night to do T123 to Paddington, assuming Crossrail takes over the Heathrow Connect service, then is nine minutes realistic to do Paddington to Liverpool Street.?

Simon

[norbitonflyer]

May 8, 2010 21:06:51 GMT flippyff said:

is nine minutes realistic to do Paddington to Liverpool Street.?

It's about four miles, so allowing 30 seconds at each intermadiate stop gives you an average speed (start to stop) of 30mph

In comparison, Javelins are scheduled do the six miles St Pancras to Stratford in seven minutes, which is a start to stop average of just over 50mph

[Deleted]

Getting back to the Teacup, I'm sure I've been told why Districts use platform 3 at Edgware Rd and Teacups 2 - presumably the Experts have discovered that there are more passengers there for West Brompton and beyond than for South Ken and beyond.

Surely in general the obvious answer is that we have a better service for journeys that don't go through Edgware Road (other than to/from H'smith) and a worse one for those that do. Again, TfL ought to know how many passengers fall into each category.