Poster at Wembley Park southbound

[cso]

Not sure whether anyone will be able to, or is allowed to answer this... but at Wembley Park on the Southbound Jubilee there's an A4 laminated poster which says:

'All Train Operators

Romeo
Tango
India'

and it's been intriguing me on the morning commute...

Anyone know what it's about?

[Deleted]

I suspect it's phonetic alphabete text saying RTI, and a quick google search (Tubeprune dictionary got nothing) gives Real Time Information. Doesn't make sense for me thoug.

[cso]

I knew it was the phonetic alphabet but couldn't work out what RTI was meant to be...

Sounds like it's a poster telling drivers to bombard us with announcements to me

[setttt]

May 18, 2010 9:55:29 GMT cso said:

Sounds like it's a poster telling drivers to bombard us with announcements to me

Hole in one. ;D

[Deleted]

Poor TfL can't really win, can they? I quite like being told about delays!

[cso]

It's more the "We're stopped at this signal and will be held until x" announcements that annoy me and what I was referring to in my comment...

Especially on the Jubilee Line from Kingsbury to Wembley between 1730 and 1800 -- the driver makes the announcement and then we move... same on the Met between West Harrow and Rayners Lane.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2010 9:29:39 GMT @eirikho said:

I suspect it's phonetic alphabete text saying RTI, and a quick google search (Tubeprune dictionary got nothing) gives Real Time Information. Doesn't make sense for me thoug.

It's probably so that if the Jubilee or other lines are disrupted, passengers can use the cross platform connection on to the southbound Metropolitan line, rather than changing at Baker Street.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2010 17:05:30 GMT @ltmuseumguy said:

May 18, 2010 9:29:39 GMT @eirikho said:

I suspect it's phonetic alphabete text saying RTI, and a quick google search (Tubeprune dictionary got nothing) gives Real Time Information. Doesn't make sense for me thoug.

It's probably so that if the Jubilee or other lines are disrupted, passengers can use the cross platform connection on to the southbound Metropolitan line, rather than changing at Baker Street.

Wouldn't it be better placed at Finchley Road then?

[Tubeboy]

The RTI is indeed real time Information. The Jubilee Line is performance figures mad, even by LUs standards. The train radio this morning was glowing hot from Neasden control informing drivers that managers were out and about all over the line ensuring drivers were giving out RTI. If only Neasden themselves were more forthcoming with RTI when there is Jubilee disruption....but I digress.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2010 19:51:30 GMT Tubeboy said:

The Jubilee Line is performance figures mad, even by LUs standards. The train radio this morning was glowing hot from Neasden control informing drivers that managers were out and about all over the line ensuring drivers were giving out RTI. If only Neasden themselves were more forthcoming with RTI when there is Jubilee disruption....but I digress.

As one who is a regular on the eastern end of the Jubilee, can I please ask that these managers just SHUT UP with these anodyne, self-congratulatory messages about "Good Service" which are forced down the throats of all the fed up passengers in every PA annuncement. Perhaps they should be required to announce that "There was No Service last weekend because the management of the resignalling project are useless" instead.

[Tubeboy]

Well I am one of these people who broadcast these "self congratulatory messages", and I am not a manager, in the main they are broadcast by control room operators or station supervisors. PAs being broadcast is [Especially good service messages] a double edged sword. On balance, they are a good thing I feel. As to your views on the Jubilee upgrade Diana, they are well known.

[Colin]

To give more of a trains side perspective, this is all about our 30 second rule.....

Drivers are being bombarded with pressure to make an announcement within 30 seconds of the wheels stopping when held between stations. If we fail to do so and are caught, a letter is sent asking for an explanation and threatening disciplinary action. This can be days after the event, and after being held at many red signals

Other "standards" we have to adhere to are an announcement within 90 seconds if held in a platform, and a follow up announcement in all cases after 3 minutes.

As much as myself and my driving colleagues disagree with this policy (you can add in station staff too really as they obviously have a set of standards to follow as well), we have to follow it or face the threat of disciplinary action.

So whilst many staff agree with the sentiments expressed by our customers, you'll just have to put up with it until a new fad comes along.

[Deleted]

There are similar laminated posters at Acton Town and I've seen a few popping up across the network.

Any public-facing role in a large organisation is always going to get held up to standards that are easily put in to a spreadsheet to analyse. My work gets pulled up on really specific and subjective stuff in our equivalent, it annoys me as we provide consistently good customer service.

As long as you don't get over-zealous managers pushing targets for the sake of it the 30-second rule is actually a good standard. I really appreciate one effective PA on my journey if there's going to be a slight delay or we're being held at a couple of red signals. Have sympathy for drivers if you're getting in trouble for not repeating the same thing seven times when constantly stopping at red signals.

[Deleted]

May 18, 2010 21:28:39 GMT Tubeboy said:

As to your views on the Jubilee upgrade Diana, they are well known.

Infamy at last! Now what was it that Kenneth Williams said about infamy?

As much as myself and my driving colleagues disagree with this policy (you can add in station staff too really as they obviously have a set of standards to follow as well), we have to follow it or face the threat of disciplinary action.

We suspected as much. Such a management approach is really quite bizarre; they are besotted with making announcements about trivia, and enjoy making threats to their valued (as you all should be) staff at the sharp end for non-compliance with such stupidities, but care not a jot about having no service at weekends.

[Oracle]

"Infamy, infamy.....they've got it in for me!"

From Carry On Cleo I think.


I find it amazing now that there are so many announcements on the Underground these days. A complete contrast from my commuting days in the 1970s to early 1980s. I respect the good intentions but is too much a bad thing? Or is too much better than nothing?

This thread has made interesting reading. That's what I like about this Forum!

[cso]

Interesting that the staff don't agree with it too, Colin... but I'm guessing management don't listen?

Diana: I think you'll probably find that they DO care about not having a service at weekends, as that costs them money for a start... although quite why discussion of that needs to sneak in to every thread, I'm not sure

[Deleted]

Much better than nothing as it used to be,although the clarity could be improved sometimes.
Some drivers can be very ''chatty'' and you half expect them to come out with something like''Arriving at Pinner International in 10 minutes,fasten seat belts,cabin crew doors to manual''

[Deleted]

May 19, 2010 10:24:55 GMT cso said:

Interesting that the staff don't agree with it too, Colin... but I'm guessing management don't listen?

Diana: I think you'll probably find that they DO care about not having a service at weekends, as that costs them money for a start... although quite why discussion of that needs to sneak in to every thread, I'm not sure

I feel it not simply management not listening, but simply the entire culture created by the political spin machines and the right wing media for public sector performance management. Managers need to be measured, so much so that the measure becomes more important the larger picture. This isn't isolated to London Underground, you'll find the same culture within local council/ police/ NHS etc etc.

[citysig]

We are waiting for the current "trend" to slowly die away, as I am sure it will at some point in the future - but maybe not until that big sports event happens in a couple of years.

The public, whilst getting "more" information - in fact overloaded with the stuff when there is nothing to tell - are actually stuck between being told what's going on and being told what the "criteria" set for each line wants them to be told.

A recent discussion / example.

This morning. Signal problem Aldgate East. The H&C service is shown as "part suspended between Liverpool Street and Barking." People on duty did ask if it could be shown as "Liverpool Street to Aldgate East" to prompt people into getting to the latter and catching onward District services. Unfortunately the "criteria" does not allow this.

Fictional example. A branch of the Met line has every other train cancelled. For a 10 minute service this means the service is running every 20 minutes. However, the criteria states in simple terms that unless a customer has to wait more time than the equivalent of 2 cancellation headways (in this case 30 minutes) then "minor delays" cannot be advertised. Under the criteria, "Minor Delays" tells the customer that they "may have to wait longer than normal." Taking the theory behind this, think of an average platform. Very few people will actually have to wait the full 20 minutes - mainly only those who just missed the previous service.

So within those 2 examples. In the first you see a case of advertising more disruption than needed, and a lack of telling people what IS running. In the second, a case of advertising less disruption, and again a lack of telling people what IS running.

A long time ago I sat in a few meetings designed to come up with suggestions to "revise" what we tell people (I even asked for suggestions on here as to what should be given out.) Unfortunately, the discussions died a death and we were stuck with what we have, and carried on telling customers what the "criteria" set out, rather than advertising a clearer picture.

Anyone trying to replace the system has to also bear in mind that the replacement must be as simple and uncomplicated as the "Minor Delays / Severe Delays / Good Service" message, but at the same time it must give out valued information. The criteria should also be simple, whilst at the same time making sure our customers don't avoid their usual journey for the sake of one small delay.

[Deleted]

May 20, 2010 21:12:29 GMT @centralsimon said:

I feel it not simply management not listening, but simply the entire culture created by the political spin machines and the right wing media for public sector performance management. Managers need to be measured, so much so that the measure becomes more important the larger picture. This isn't isolated to London Underground, you'll find the same culture within local council/ police/ NHS etc etc.

This is very 1990s management style, now discredited, the "targets have to be measureable" approach. It was of course found that this led to "managing the figures, not managing the business". It comes from a further management style of expressing an entire concept on one side of one piece of paper (don't laugh, this was serious MBA teaching 20 years ago), with the idea further encapsulated in the first paragraph for those top level management who were So Busy they could not get beyond that point. It is indeed a continuing trait nowadays of public services like TfL or local councils. The commercial world has moved on.

Quite why the information cannot be presented more meaningfully for each situation, as MetControl gives examples of above, I cannot imagine. Were the information systems purchased at considerable expense but then fitted with a big knob which only has three positions, "Good/Minor/Severe"?

[Deleted]

May 20, 2010 22:24:20 GMT @citysig said:

However, the criteria states in simple terms that unless a customer has to wait more time than the equivalent of 2 cancellation headways (in this case 30 minutes) then "minor delays" cannot be advertised.

Is this criterion part of your fictional example, or is it part of TfL's actual rules? Is it muddying the water to ask if Overground services use the same criteria, and if so what would happen wrt. reporting delays on the every-fifteen-minutes ELL service north from New Cross-not-Gate?

[citysig]

May 21, 2010 12:35:53 GMT @creepingbobbism said:

Is this criterion part of your fictional example, or is it part of TfL's actual rules?

Not so much "rules" as "strong guidelines." There can be differences depending on the individual circumstances.