Platform use at Edgware Road

[Deleted]

After bashing the trailing crossover at Edgware Road for the truncated H&C service to Whitechapel, I began thinking about the platform use I had seen at the station while the H&C was berthed in platform 3. It appeared that the Wimbleware H&Cs were reversing in platform 2 and the Circles were running through on platforms 1 and 4. However, I would have expected that the weekday off-peak Wimbleware service would have necessitated a greater number of terminating trains, and that leaving the H&C sat down in platform 3 for as long as it was (even with the appearance of stepping back) would have caused things to back up.

Does anyone know what the booked platform usage is for the center platforms at ERD?

[citysig]

On the current special timetable, all-day platforming is, as you have seen, Eastbounds via platform 1, Westbounds via platform 4, District reversers in platform 2, H&C reversers in platform 3.

It can't be done any other way, as there is only one crossover at the east end of the station (that is, you can't arrive from Baker Street into platform 2 - so the only west to east reversing that can be done is via platform 3).

[Deleted]

Jul 29, 2010 7:55:17 GMT @citysig said:

On the current special timetable, all-day platforming is, as you have seen, Eastbounds via platform 1, Westbounds via platform 4, District reversers in platform 2, H&C reversers in platform 3.

It can't be done any other way, as there is only one crossover at the east end of the station (that is, you can't arrive from Baker Street into platform 2 - so the only west to east reversing that can be done is via platform 3).

This is what I expected to be the case, but I'm curious about the long turnaround time for the train. As mentioned in the OP I would have expected that leaving a train in platform 3 for that long would have caused the Wimbleware service to back up due to the lack of availability of both platforms. Is this not the case?

[citysig]

From memory (not close to a timetable at present, though I will be in a couple of hours) the Edgware Road-Whitechapel service is only laying over for around 5-7 minutes at each end, so no considerable layovers. Also at each end, the timetabling is such that the next train to reverse is on the approach as the previous one is due out.

The Edgware Road Districts are running every 10 minutes, with a similar layover and timetabling arrangement (i.e. 6 or 7 minutes, plus the next one in approaches as the previous one leaves).

As long as everything runs to time then it works well.

If needed, one of the ERD-WHL services can be sent via the Circle to make room. Luckily, one Circle trip is the equivalent of one return ERD-WHL trip.

[Deleted]

Jul 29, 2010 11:18:00 GMT @citysig said:

From memory (not close to a timetable at present, though I will be in a couple of hours)

What about the timetables you always take home?

[Dstock7080]

Can confirm both DR (via pfm2) and H&C (via pfm3) off-peak are running every 10mins, with 7min turn around in platforms.

[uzairjubilee]

Passengers were exceptionally confused over which services were departing from which platform, despite the temporary signs clearly depicting what service departed from each platform. The District I was on departed platform 2 for Wimbledon with the driver announcing the destination then very quickly closing the doors. The family who were also on the train decided they would "stay on this one and see where it would take" them. Next station...Paddington. I presumed they wanted to go to Paddington Bishops Road, so before the doors opened to Paddington (Praed St), I asked them if they were trying to get to "the other Paddington"....They wanted to go to Euston.

[citysig]

Jul 29, 2010 20:53:57 GMT uzairjubilee said:

Passengers were exceptionally confused over which services were departing from which platform, despite the temporary signs clearly depicting what service departed from each platform. The District I was on departed platform 2 for Wimbledon with the driver announcing the destination then very quickly closing the doors. The family who were also on the train decided they would "stay on this one and see where it would take" them. Next station...Paddington. I presumed they wanted to go to Paddington Bishops Road, so before the doors opened to Paddington (Praed St), I asked them if they were trying to get to "the other Paddington"....They wanted to go to Euston.

But then again, either today or after the closure, a train from platform 2 at Edgware Road will nearly always be going to Paddington (Circle). The fact they wanted to go east and ended up going west is one of those other, more general, everyday problems people unfortunately encounter whilst using the system.

[uzairjubilee]

Indeed. However they were looking at the maps inside the car and could have easily walked a few steps to see the platform DMI. The parents were angry people. Very angry.

[superteacher]

Jul 29, 2010 22:58:18 GMT uzairjubilee said:

Indeed. However they were looking at the maps inside the car and could have easily walked a few steps to see the platform DMI. The parents were angry people. Very angry.

Of course, they could have asked someone! All too often, people get on a train when they aren't 100% sure where it's going. Why were they angry, if they said "we'll just see where this one goes"?

[uzairjubilee]

Jul 30, 2010 10:26:53 GMT superteacher said:

Jul 29, 2010 22:58:18 GMT uzairjubilee said:

Indeed. However they were looking at the maps inside the car and could have easily walked a few steps to see the platform DMI. The parents were angry people. Very angry.

Of course, they could have asked someone! All too often, people get on a train when they aren't 100% sure where it's going. Why were they angry, if they said "we'll just see where this one goes"?

I took out the swearing

[norbitonflyer]

Have I read this right? Trains from both directions are reversing in the centre platforms at ERD?

Since both services are worked by the C stock fleet, would it not be simpler for all concerned to have Wimblewares arriving in Platform 2 reformed as H&C, and vice versa for H&Cs arriving in Platform 3?

Drivers might have to switch trains for route knowledge reasons (but an earlier poster said they are already stepping back) but it would mean all passengers would have cross-platform or same-platform changes (same train even!)

Whether the trains should be advertised as Wimbledon - Whitechapel/Barking I'm undecided.

Am I missing something obvious?

[citysig]

Jul 30, 2010 21:22:42 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Am I missing something obvious?

Yes. The fact that it would cause more confusion - amongst both staff and customers - than simply saying "For 3 weeks your Wimbledon train will arrive and depart from platform 2."

I'll give you a simple peak-hour with mild late running example.

Train 220 ex-Whitechapel arrives at Edgware Road platform 3 on time. It reforms to District Train 70 for Wimbledon. The train operator for 70 is on the inbound service, but is only at Notting Hill Gate. By the time he arrives, changes platform and departs, the train is even later and 221 ex-Whitechapel is waiting to get into Edgware Road platform 3 (and is also delaying the next westbound Circle).

The "new" 220 (reformed from 70) now departs late as well, because although the train operator was ready and waiting, the stock arrived late. So now we have 2 trains, on 2 different services running late.

Those who can remember the first covered way works in the mid 1990s will remember what happens when you timetable trains to be swapped between 2 sets of train operators running different services. From starting with a fairly minor delay somewhere, you end up with trains without drivers and vice versa, and very soon you end up with nothing moving. It is why that particular timetable didn't survive for very long, and it's why the extended Circle Line didn't include the Wimbledon branch.

With the Circle running as a Circle, those requiring cross-platform interchange can get better than that at Paddington. A typical King's Cross to Wimbledon journey can be achieved by boarding a Circle and dropping back onto a District at Paddington. The return of course offers the same sort of opportunity - and also the cross-platform interchange at Edgware Road.

Stepping back is not being used.

[ruislip]

When will service on the Hammersmith branch be back to normal?

[citysig]

;D You mean when will everyone have their beloved Extended Circle timetable back ;D

If all goes to plan (as it has so far) Monday 16th August.

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2010 22:10:58 GMT @citysig said:

Those who can remember the first covered way works in the mid 1990s will remember what happens when you timetable trains to be swapped between 2 sets of train operators running different services. From starting with a fairly minor delay somewhere, you end up with trains without drivers and vice versa, and very soon you end up with nothing moving. It is why that particular timetable didn't survive for very long, and it's why the extended Circle Line didn't include the Wimbledon branch.

The same reason why stepping back at Morden on the Northern line was always problematic, although that was persisted with for some years it was eventually dropped.

[citysig]

Am I right in thinking that it was scrapped around the time the whole timetable was recast (by someone who went on to move over to us and then bring about the new Circle Line?)

Stepping back only works where you have simple end to end services, with no branches, and everything stays in the correct order. So that's basically the Waterloo and City line then ;D

Everywhere else, the disadvantages tend to outweigh the advantages.

[Deleted]

Aug 2, 2010 22:15:11 GMT @citysig said:

Am I right in thinking that it was scrapped around the time the whole timetable was recast (by someone who went on to move over to us and then bring about the new Circle Line?)

Stepping back only works where you have simple end to end services, with no branches, and everything stays in the correct order. So that's basically the Waterloo and City line then ;D

Everywhere else, the disadvantages tend to outweigh the advantages.

I was under the impression that the introduction of stepping-back at Morden was also his baby but I may have got that wrong (I wasn't on the Northern line when it was introduced).

Stepping back works ok on the Bakerloo and Victoria lines too - relatively simple lines so even when there are some problems the number of reformations needed is manageable. However a line like the Northern line with it's complex geography was clearly unsuitable IMO - even a relatively minor incident on one branch can lead to significant out of turn working to Morden and unless the person managing the step-backs is very on the ball, the necessary reformations cause delays and make the whole service run later and later (I saw it happen so many times and you'd just want to pull your hair out, seeing the late running coming from Morden get worse and worse even when nothing much had happened).

[citysig]

Aug 5, 2010 10:44:52 GMT @tfc said:

I was under the impression that the introduction of stepping-back at Morden was also his baby but I may have got that wrong (I wasn't on the Northern line when it was introduced).

I'll have to check with the man himself, but I think he arrived a short while after it had already been put in, and left a while after the new timetable (minus stepping-back) proved a "success."

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2010 22:10:58 GMT @citysig said:

Jul 30, 2010 21:22:42 GMT norbitonflyer said:

Am I missing something obvious?

Yes. The fact that it would cause more confusion - amongst both staff and customers - than simply saying "For 3 weeks your Wimbledon train will arrive and depart from platform 2."

I'll give you a simple peak-hour with mild late running example.

Train 220 ex-Whitechapel arrives at Edgware Road platform 3 on time. It reforms to District Train 70 for Wimbledon. The train operator for 70 is on the inbound service, but is only at Notting Hill Gate. By the time he arrives, changes platform and departs, the train is even later and 221 ex-Whitechapel is waiting to get into Edgware Road platform 3 (and is also delaying the next westbound Circle).

The "new" 220 (reformed from 70) now departs late as well, because although the train operator was ready and waiting, the stock arrived late. So now we have 2 trains, on 2 different services running late.

Those who can remember the first covered way works in the mid 1990s will remember what happens when you timetable trains to be swapped between 2 sets of train operators running different services. From starting with a fairly minor delay somewhere, you end up with trains without drivers and vice versa, and very soon you end up with nothing moving. It is why that particular timetable didn't survive for very long, and it's why the extended Circle Line didn't include the Wimbledon branch.

With the Circle running as a Circle, those requiring cross-platform interchange can get better than that at Paddington. A typical King's Cross to Wimbledon journey can be achieved by boarding a Circle and dropping back onto a District at Paddington. The return of course offers the same sort of opportunity - and also the cross-platform interchange at Edgware Road.

Stepping back is not being used.

I once travelled on a through train from GPS to East Putney. ISTR it was actually signalled as a District at GPS - is this possible?

[mrfs42]

Aug 8, 2010 21:59:28 GMT @innocentabroad said:

I once travelled on a through train from GPS to East Putney. ISTR it was actually signalled as a District at GPS - is this possible?

Certain "Putney" Locals would extend to Liverpool St., Moorgate and Aldgate; in fact I'm looking this very moment at a set of times for a Wimbo - Liverpool St (Bay) R stock working; not to mention CP stock to Moorgate bay.

The column heading TD for these trains in the Met WTT was 'DL', once these trains had truncled onto the Met. then they had to make their way back again.

[Deleted]

Am I right in thinking that the circle line extention to hammersmith was merely a timetable adjustment? A lot of hype went into it...

[mrfs42]

Aug 10, 2010 17:04:56 GMT @robert said:

Am I right in thinking that the circle line extention to hammersmith was merely a timetable adjustment? A lot of hype went into it...

No. It was a complete recast of the timetable - I suppose the last major recasts to such a degree were when the Uxbridge/Barking services were withdrawn in October 1941; the through ELL service withdrawn in November 1940 and the alterations to the Met. services after November 1939 when the Bakerloo opened.

By the same yardstick the loss of the Stanmore branch to the Jubilee is comparably only a TT adjustment (and the extension of the Putney locals to Liverpool Street/Aldgate/Barking at various points in history) . The Extended Circle brought in a review of station-station times and the application of stand time - some might say (and operating experience tends to bear this out) that the stand time allowances are now a bit too generous.

If it were just a timetable adjustment then there would have been no need for either the huge hype or the interminable internal briefing sessions.

[ruislip]

Aug 9, 2010 8:27:09 GMT mrfs42 said:

Certain "Putney" Locals would extend to Liverpool St., Moorgate and Aldgate; in fact I'm looking this very moment at a set of times for a Wimbo - Liverpool St (Bay) R stock working; not to mention CP stock to Moorgate bay.

The column heading TD for these trains in the Met WTT was 'DL', once these trains had truncled onto the Met. then they had to make their way back again.

I'm still surprised that none of this ever made the pages of the Underground Guide. In my collection, all the "Wimblewares" are only shown as far north/east as Edgware Rd.

[citysig]

Aug 8, 2010 21:59:28 GMT @innocentabroad said:

I once travelled on a through train from GPS to East Putney. ISTR it was actually signalled as a District at GPS - is this possible?

If you mean can a "District" service, shown on the Dot Matrix as a District destination run through the northern part of the Circle, still be possible, then the answer is yes.

There are occasions where we organise a changeover of stock at Edgware Road (say between a Hammersmith and District service - to get the original District stock back to Hammersmith Depot). The terminating District service gets shown as a Hammersmith train at Edgware Road. Then the "new" District train can be shown on Dot Matrix equipment from Farringdon (as far Parsons Green descriptions) or Euston Square (as far as Putney Bridge descriptions) or Baker Street (as far as Wimbledon).

However, it should be noted that both trains are formed of C-stock, and both trains require the respective District/H&C drivers to take over at Edgware Road.

So you could still travel from GPS to Wimbledon - but it would be by sheer chance and is not a timetabled train.

[citysig]

Aug 10, 2010 17:04:56 GMT @robert said:

Am I right in thinking that the circle line extention to hammersmith was merely a timetable adjustment? A lot of hype went into it...

Hype. Never. Oh unless you read the pages of a couple of free london toilet newspapers. If they were to be believed, we weren't changing the way the Circle runs, we were ending the world as we know it.

In actual fact we were removing a service which was unreliable beyond belief and replacing it with one that was a lot more dependable - but of course, with the dreaded pip of a change at Edgware Road that many have still to spit from their mouths.

Aug 10, 2010 18:24:16 GMT mrfs42 said:

The Extended Circle brought in a review of station-station times and the application of stand time - some might say (and operating experience tends to bear this out) that the stand time allowances are now a bit too generous.

But, last I heard, most of this generous allowance will still remain. Like the new larger dustbin, that soon gets accustomed to filling just as frequently as the older smaller one, and like the new 4-lane motorway that handles traffic better than the 3-lane one, it is felt that the current allowances will be "grown into." Currently they allow early running and some frustration. In years to come they may simply offer right time running.

The odd half minute is to be snipped here and there, but overall, from December (the next TT change) it will be more or less as it is now.

[mrfs42]

Aug 10, 2010 20:28:49 GMT @citysig said:

The odd half minute is to be snipped here and there, but overall, from December (the next TT change) it will be more or less as it is now.

<sigh> I suppose it gives more chance for the needless and nasty to listen for the 'we are being held at a red signal' faff.

Why? Is it a fear that the WTT just won't be as robust without all the extra stand time at Acton or High St? Or is it an effort to offset the outstanding mitigation works for the new toys: more stand time, less need to hammer the units up to the sticks - less risk of spads?

Perhaps I'm being too overtly cynical, perhaps I'm thinking about the present seeming 'cut and paste' method of TT production, perhaps I'm just bemused that one area where LT/LU were truly the world leaders [1] are just content to rest on their laurels.

I suppose that humming noise in the background is JP Thomas spinning slightly faster in his grave.

[1]oh yes - I'm not one to lionise organisations but the operational information/timetable matching and timetable production coming out of either the 4th floor at Broadway or the TTO in general has been second to none.

[Colin]

Aug 10, 2010 20:28:49 GMT @citysig said:

The odd half minute is to be snipped here and there, but overall, from December (the next TT change) it will be more or less as it is now.

I've been under the impression from District line management that we are going back to the running times we had before the changes last December - the impression being formed via them traveling in my cab several times.

As things currently are, I pray for a five minute delay almost daily just so I can actually travel at the signed line speed rather than constantly crawling along trying to maintain ridiculously excessive running times.

[citysig]

It may be that there are a few more half minutes snipped from the District than the H&C - to be honest I've only heard about "our" side. But then again, given we run together, either the timings are staying the same or we're all going back to the older timings.

The first confirmation will no doubt come in the form of the timetable itself - which probably won't be seen much before the last week in November