Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 16:41:17 GMT
Probably Tube Lines trying to save money by not including the reversing facility By some of their stuff you wonder if that's possible to save any more... |
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 9, 2011 20:33:15 GMT
I suspect that many of the ways they've saved money in the short term will cost much more in the long term. That's usually the way it goes anyway.
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Ben
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Post by Ben on Feb 9, 2011 20:48:58 GMT
It was commented during one of the past city hall transport sessions by Mike Brown that Thales's system spec (which by default had WDM included and possible) had been customised by tubelines, one of the customisations being the removal of a bi-di facility.
So Tubelines in effect spent extra money for a less flexible system. He said they were hoping to see (when they had a better picture of the work) what they could do to correct such issues. Evidently they couldn't do much.
I don't understand how its possible though, all an engineer would say is 'it removes flexibility and costs more'... how on earth could that be misinterpreted?! Either someones just not said anything, someone in charge is an idiot and didnt listen to his own people, or its actually a willful waste of public money.
There its one facility, theres a few big questions about project management and waste of public funds to be asked here. Someone clearly doesn't care about the public.
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Chris M
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Post by Chris M on Feb 9, 2011 23:29:31 GMT
No, PPP was set up in such a way that the only people that the private partner had to care about were their shareholders. This is one of the many reasons why PPP failed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2011 20:43:29 GMT
The bi-di debate is always going on - why did the Jubilee not get it. From what I can make out, no bi-di is what LU wanted and Tube Lines were asked to provide via Thales a uni-directional version of TBTC.
Nobody seems to be able to confirm exactly who originated the decision.
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Post by edwin on Feb 11, 2011 2:30:57 GMT
Do other LU ATO lines have bi-directional capability?
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DWS
every second count's
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Post by DWS on Feb 11, 2011 12:52:54 GMT
Do other LU ATO lines have bi-directional capability? No. |
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Post by flippyff on Feb 11, 2011 20:58:45 GMT
The bi-di debate is always going on - why did the Jubilee not get it. From what I can make out, no bi-di is what LU wanted and Tube Lines were asked to provide via Thales a uni-directional version of TBTC. Nobody seems to be able to confirm exactly who originated the decision. So would it be a not-so-simple software upgrade or a quite-hard-at-the-lineside upgrade to get bi-di on the Jub? Simon |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2011 22:01:59 GMT
I think it would be a fairly significant design change now, to both software and lineside changes to things like route secure. That would no doubt lead to loads of closures to retest all the safety functions so I doubt anyone will want that!
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Post by edwin on Feb 12, 2011 3:32:11 GMT
Do other LU ATO lines have bi-directional capability? No. Why is it an issue then? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2011 8:28:20 GMT
I can confirm that on the Central ATP/ATO only works in one direction. If we have to do a wrong direction move we have to go into Restricted Manual obviously after we’ve changed ends…….
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Post by Alight on Feb 13, 2011 0:57:51 GMT
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 3:45:04 GMT
I'm sure that every passenger using Jubilee (south of Dollis Hill) since the switch to TBTC noticed this  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2011 10:45:17 GMT
Apparently the Jubilee line trains have developed a habit of repeating the onboard train announcements twice due to the Train Management System still working alongside the TBTC testing. Has anyone noticed this? Yup, have also noticed at a few stations (namely Swiss Cottage) the trains would just say "this train terminates at Stratford" and not the name of the station. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2011 12:41:46 GMT
Trains in ATO behave like my dog when she's on an extendable lead. She'll run like the clappers then get yanked back, stop and sniff something til she's tugged forward then full speed ahead again and repeat till we get to the park (Dollis Hill) at my usual walking pace (WTT10).
Plus, I'm often having to clear up after she's had a dump!
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Post by jamesb on Feb 15, 2011 20:51:09 GMT
I think it's getting embarrassing at how many delays and suspensions are happening on the Jubilee... There seem to be so many faulty trains and service suspensions (as I type this it is part suspended with severe delays elsewhere).
I don't think we were informed sufficiently at how early in development the new signaling system is... The passenger service shouldn't be used as a guinea pig... So many weekend closures just to have a worse service.
People might say that I'm short minded...
But when you consider all the closures which have happened, it seems like a bit more then 'bedding in' and 'teething problems' to have so many service suspensions and faulty trains. True the service recovers reasonably quickly when things are restored but still....
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2011 21:16:59 GMT
Looks like there's another suspension now owing to a signal failure at St John's Wood. I'm curious - there have been a number of failures owing to defective trains - what about them is defective? Is the TBTC system, with the frequent jerky starts and stops, causing actual hardware failure or is it something else?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2011 21:18:37 GMT
From what I know, it's the trains refusing to communicate with the TBTC servers.
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North End
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Post by North End on Feb 15, 2011 21:45:17 GMT
Looks like there's another suspension now owing to a signal failure at St John's Wood. I'm curious - there have been a number of failures owing to defective trains - what about them is defective? Is the TBTC system, with the frequent jerky starts and stops, causing actual hardware failure or is it something else? Normally it's both VOBCs going offline causing the train to become NCT (non-communicating train). When this happens, the train has to be worked at slow speed to the depot. |
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Post by mcmaddog on Feb 15, 2011 23:07:42 GMT
Well severe delays might be being advertised but I just had an amazing run from Green Park to Canada Water. It managed it in 11 mins with absolutely no sign of slow running. I therefore think the comments about slow running previously must've occurred when there was a preceding train triggering the distance to go to keep it slow.
When it works (and to fair it hasn't disrupted me yet) this TBTC is awesome !
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2011 23:48:24 GMT
They do seem to be slower running, because of the timetable. If the train's running late it will absolutely gun it.
When it works, it is good, I must agree.
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Post by 21146 on Feb 16, 2011 0:30:54 GMT
Suspended again on Tuesday due to axle-counter failure at St. John's Wood (Plus trains "not communicating" at the east end.) All this when the "Brit Awards" were going on at the O2.
Will this ever work, and wouldn't conventional driving with old-fashioned multi-home auto signals, plus the semis operated by signal boxes, have provided a more intensive and reliable service?
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Post by malcolmffc on Feb 16, 2011 7:14:02 GMT
Suspended again on Tuesday due to axle-counter failure at St. John's Wood (Plus trains "not communicating" at the east end.) All this when the "Brit Awards" were going on at the O2. Will this ever work, and wouldn't conventional driving with old-fashioned multi-home auto signals, plus the semis operated by signal boxes, have provided a more intensive and reliable service? No. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2011 21:47:43 GMT
As with all these systems, especially when you can't test the system continuously for weeks without interruptions, problems (particularly software) takes weeks to resolve. Safety critical software requires a huge amount of testing, typically 2 to 3 months from finding a fix to implementing. As this has only been in full daily use for around 6 to 7 weeks, I am sure the issues found since switch on are already being fixed and tested off the railway and will soon been implemented to address issues being experienced.
I would imagine various tweaks and updates will be rolling off the Thales production line shortly.
I think we'll just have to grin and bear it a bit longer to get over these issues.
Its still better than the JLE was when that first opened with fixed block, and TBTC is also working better than it did on DLR when the same system was introduced in the 90's
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Post by edwin on Feb 17, 2011 1:49:53 GMT
Will they be using the same system on the Northern line? It'll be more trouble-free if done that way, surely.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2011 12:23:20 GMT
Seeing another faulty train just now at London Bridge. Is it the same trains that are always having the TBTC comms issues or is it all of them? Curious if there are a few bad apples or if it's the whole fleet.
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Post by londonstuff on Feb 17, 2011 15:29:08 GMT
Seeing another faulty train just now at London Bridge. Is it the same trains that are always having the TBTC comms issues or is it all of them? Curious if there are a few bad apples or if it's the whole fleet. And whether it's all the same problem or a multitude of different ones... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2011 16:05:02 GMT
Team in the office here in Canary Wharf are all still speaking about Tuesday night. One of the issues seems to be a focus at the centre on operating the trains rather than serving the passengers, and not being able to understand the difference. I know you good people who run the stations understand this, but do the upper management?
There were big long gaps from Canary Wharf towards Stratford, quite a lot of people still around although mid-evening, after more than 10 minutes a train, very full, arrived now only going to North Greenwich. People waiting stepped politely back (aren't we nice) to let many get off, who now stood in front of those who had been waiting! Another 6 minutes or more before the next train to Stratford came in, this one was so packed that few could get in, and certainly none of those who had been waiting a long time.
Many more trains seemed to be going back into London than coming from there, and we wondered why some trains were only going to North Greenwich. There may be a belief that the trains are running so things are alright, but they are no use if when they turn up at infrequent intervals the people waiting cannot insert themselves into them.
In the end we went out of the Jubilee Station, walked across The Wharf, and got in our usual DLR, round to Poplar and eastwards. Now did we have our Oyster cards charged for going into the Underground but coming out again? I can't tell, because the new ticket machines put on the DLR a year or so ago, although they finally allowed Oysters to be topped up, can't tell you any history on your card. I wonder how we are meant to know, when the stations we use most days are fully automated DLR ones.
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Post by Tubeboy on Feb 17, 2011 18:17:30 GMT
Closed track at Stratford, which knocked out platform 13, defective unit at London Bridge, as well as a tresspasser at Stanmore.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2011 22:00:51 GMT
Excuse my huge ignorance, but what does TBTC even mean? According to Google it is "'Transportable Blood Transshipment Center", and I doubt they'd spell centre the American way on the Jubbly line!
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